The auction after 2NT rebid without NMF

[paulhar]

I could have done this as several polls, but there's too many questions. I have an idea what I think these bids mean, but since I usually play new minor forcing, I'd like to see if my 'standard' thinking is OK.

 

ASSUME: you are playing with a good partner but he will not play new minor forcing, preferring to use 3C and 3D as forcing and natural. Assume 2NT shows 18-19.

 

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

6. If your answer to #1 is No, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 5-3 heart fit.

7. If your answer to #1 is No, and you think 2NT could have 4 spades, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 4-4 heart fit.

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

[luke warm]

1) i'd say yes, forcing

2) 4225

3) no.. if 4234 i'd say 3nt

4) can't w/out playing wolff or something

5) not sure 4h is better than 3nt, but if bidding is 1c/1h/2nt/3s then responder shows 4/5 majors i think, so opener can just bid 4h with 3

6) i think 1c/1h/2nt/3c/3d/3h is not forcing and direct 3h is

7) don't think so, but i might have gotten confused on the bidding somewhere

[Cascade]

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

 

Yes. However it would also be useful to have a method to play in 3♥. I use a modified Wolff sign-off.

 

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

 

I play this as 4-4 in the majors. This is much easier in a NMF or checkback enviroment but it is playable without those agreements.

 

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

 

A cue-bid for what?

 

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

 

see 2 above.

 

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

 

3♠ shows 4-4 for me see 2 above so this is a non-decision.

 

6. If your answer to #1 is No, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 5-3 heart fit.

 

N/A

 

7. If your answer to #1 is No, and you think 2NT could have 4 spades, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 4-4 heart fit.

 

Do you mean spade fit?

 

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

 

Nope!

[gabika73]

Just 2 points:

- any bid by the responder is forcing;

- without an artificial method (such as Wolff-relay) there is no way to distinguish responder's 5♠5♥ from 5♠4♥ or 4♠5♥ from 4♠4♥. (Unless opener's 2nt denies 4card♠, of course).

 

I know, this thread is not about Wolff-relay. But I cannot resist to write about it.

 

Wolff relay does a good job defyning these hand types, though. Opener will respond 3M if he has a 3 card support for responder's Major, otherwise 3♦. Yes, even with 4 ♠, since responder can have a weak hand with hearts, and was going to sign-off in 3♥.

 

after 1m-1♥; 2nt:

Bidding 3♠ directly shows 4-5, and bidding it via Wolff-relay shows 4-4.

 

after 1m-1♠; 2nt:

Bidding 3♥ directly shows 5-5, and bidding it via Wolff-relay shows 5-4.

 

Also, slammish hands with a minor (either support or own suit) can be introduced.

Bidding 3♦ directly shows slammish with diamonds, while bidding 3nt via Wolff is slammish with clubs.

(So do not bid Wolff just to check if opener has a 3card support; if you are going to rebid 3nt, he'll take you for a slammish hand with clubs. You will know about the 3card support if you bid your major naturally, showing 5+ in a GF hand.)

[paulhar]

Hi - I was hoping to find out what is considered "standard" for people that don't play conventions and got advertisements for conventions instead :D

 

I know it's easier with conventions and I play one myself. However, for the newer player, artificiality is confusing. We have a student that won't ever bid 2C because he has heard on two different occasions that 2C is reserved for something else! (Once when learning weak 2 bids and the other time when learning the signoff bids over 1NT.) So, now the poor fellow won't overcall 2C, won't rebid 2C, etc. My theory is that newer players should get the basics down first before learning conventions (I guess I would make an exception for Stayman and Blackwood, since all their friends play them.)

 

In any event, I have ideas about how responder playing no artificial bids should respond over a 2NT rebid and I wanted to find out whether they were standard or a figment of my imagination. It's hard to find out the truth because everybody plays some convention here.

 

I think (assuming no conventions) that any bid over 2NT is forcing; you pay off when responder is weak and long in hearts. Responder bids 3H with 5 or more hearts, and opener, without 3 hearts, bids 3S on the way to 3NT with 4 spades. Responder bids 3S over 2NT to cater to 4-4 in the majors to cater to opener having bypassed them. I don't think any major suit fits are lost at the game level using these. Cascade seems to back up my position. If anyone else has an opinion on what is Standard (if no artificial conventions of any kind are allowed), please let me know.

 

It's a lot easier when responder bid 1S first - responder can bid 3H with 4H & 5S, and can bid 3S with 5S without 4H and can bid 4H with 5-5 with a fit guaranteed unless opener bid 2NT offshape. With a 5-5 mildly interested in slam, responder can bid 3H intending to correct 3NT to 4H but giving opener a chance to cuebid a minor with a great fit (oops - I guess that's artificial!)

[Cascade]

If you don't want conventions then it is simplest if everything is forcing over 2NT.

 

1m 1M

2NT Pass if you dont want to play game else make a simple natural bid.

 

On most (natural) auctions I play that any non-jump suit bid over 2NT is forcing. There are a few exceptions:

 

1♠ 1NT

2NT ?

 

3m is non-forcing for me with a good hand and a minor I bid 3NT.

3♥ is forcing showing five hearts

3♠ is forcing showing some spade tolerance (usually three for me since I play four-card majors)

[Fluffy]

1. Of course, since 2NT is game forcing already. It shows slam interest with 6+♥

2. 5+♥, 4+♠.

3. Keep it simple, bid 2NT with all stron balanced regardless of ♠ cards.

4. If you´ve got 4-4 in the majors you are gonna lose your 4-4 ♠ fit**.

5. Not aplicable, anyway don´t let opener decide ever, he is suposed to show.

6. I didn´t said no to #1, but I didn´t say 5 cards either, with only 5 card in a suit you are suposed to bid a forcing 3 card in a minor, after that opener will show support in your major, bid 3NT with 2-3 in your suits, or bid another suit with 2 cards in the major and 4+ in the minor.

7. I supose you mean 4-4 ♠ fit, as explained in #4 there is no way**.

8. I´ve build the system in progress from your questions, I´ve reconsidered the 3♠ rebid from responder after seeing I am losing the 4-4 fit but I found there is no need always:

 

 

**: with 44 in majors you can still bid a 3 card minor, hoping either opener has 4 in that minor+4♠, ,so he will bid 3♠, OR he has 3♥+4♠ and after 3♥ you can bid 3♠ showing some fake 3-suiter.

[Flame]

1. Of course, since 2NT is game forcing already.

2nt isnt forcing, and therfore isnt GF in most systems.

[Free]

I could have done this as several polls, but there's too many questions. I have an idea what I think these bids mean, but since I usually play new minor forcing, I'd like to see if my 'standard' thinking is OK.

 

ASSUME: you are playing with a good partner but he will not play new minor forcing, preferring to use 3C and 3D as forcing and natural. Assume 2NT shows 18-19.

 

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

6. If your answer to #1 is No, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 5-3 heart fit.

7. If your answer to #1 is No, and you think 2NT could have 4 spades, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 4-4 heart fit.

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

 

Yes, even slam try!

 

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

 

Cue, 3H is slam try...

 

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

 

No, if responder has 4 ♠'s, he could bid 3♠ instead of 3♥, showing 4-4M (maybe 5♥'s)

 

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

 

Read above.

 

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

 

With 3♥'s, just bid 3NT. If responder has 5 ♥'s, he can still bid them since you have at least 2 card support.

 

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

 

Not really. The only thing I might change is to bid 1♠ with a 4 card ♠, to make it easier after a 2NT rebid. However, after 1♣-1♥-1♠-1[NT] you'll get similar problems with partner having a 5 card ♥ imo.

 

Just play checkback and all these troubles are gone... :D

[Cascade]

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

 

I play this as 4-4 in the majors. This is much easier in a NMF or checkback enviroment but it is playable without those agreements.

Whoops reading another post in this thread I realized that I mis-read this auction.

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 3♠ this is what I play as 4-4 in the majors.

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 3♥

3♠ I would play this as four-card spade suit and not heart support.

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 3♥ Can be based on a five-card heart suit but is forcing.

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 4♥ This shows a six-card heart suit and little slam interest

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 3♥

3NT 4♥ This shows a six-card heart suit with some slam interest

[mishovnbg]

"If anyone else has an opinion on what is Standard (if no artificial conventions of any kind are allowed), please let me know."

Of course you can use horse instead of automobile, the only problem your life can be not enough long to reach destinition :D. I wonder why people learn to drive automobile, instead of using own legs only :)? Are they not afraid of mistakes? Catastrophes? Shortly - lack of science&technique will never be right way for nobody.

Misho

[helene_t]

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

No, if we play strong jump shifts and no artificial sign-off, it's non-forcing.

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

Probably a cue. I can't immagine what else it might be.

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

Well, if we don't play NMF I think opener should rebid 1sp.

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

He doesn't.

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

He doesn't.

6. If your answer to #1 is No, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 5-3 heart fit.

By improvising NMF even if we don't play it. I've seen some smart beginners doing that even if they have never heard of NMF.

7. If your answer to #1 is No, and you think 2NT could have 4 spades, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 4-4 heart fit.

He couldn't.

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

No but I'm still a little bid confused.

[EarlPurple]

1. Is 1C-1H-2NT-3H forcing?

Probably should be. At least if we play weak jump shifts, then partner could have made one first round if he has nothing but a weak hand with a string of hearts. But are we playing them? And if not how does he bid such a hand?

 

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what is 1C-1H-2NT-3H-3S?

4 spades and only 2 hearts in case partner is 4-5 in the majors?

 

3. If the answer to #2 is cue-bid, does that imply that opener must rebid his own four-card spade suit with a balanced hand rather than 2NT?

No because we can find our spade fit at the 3-level.

 

4. If you think opener can bid 2NT with four spades, how does responder get to spades with 4-4?

At the 3-level?

 

5. If your answer to #5 is 3S by responder, how does opener decide between 3NT and 4H with three hearts?

This is #5. But I presume you mean if responder bids 3♠ over 2NT - then he is showing only 4 hearts because with 5 he presumably rebids them and waits to see if I can bid the spades.

 

6. If your answer to #1 is No, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 5-3 heart fit.

7. If your answer to #1 is No, and you think 2NT could have 4 spades, explain how a game-going responder is supposed to get to a 4-4 heart fit.

N/A because my answer to #1 is yes.

8. Be honest now. Did any of your answers change after reading a later question?

Not really. If we choose to play it simple we have to put up with its limitations. Also we have to bare in mind that the bids without nmf have different meanings than they would if we were playing nmf.

[gabika73]

Yes, this seems to be a correct way.

 

With 5-5, however, you have some problems, unless you you can bid 3H, 4H, hoping that opener is not 22(45).

[Cascade]

With 2245 partner has the option of reversing into 2♦.

 

So the problem hands are 2236 with poor clubs.

 

2254 and 2263 might cause some problems after a 1♦ opening.

[EarlPurple]

The problem seems to be with the auction

 

1C - 1S - 2NT - 3H

 

which may show 4 or 5 hearts.

 

With 4-card support I will obviously bid 4H. With 3 I will go 3NT, and partner will presumably push on to 4H.

 

And I might have a long suit in clubs, possibly even solid, and only a doubleton in both hearts and spades. And in NT we may be making 9 tricks but not 10. After all, what should I rebid with this:

 

♠ Qx ♥ Jx ♦KJx ♣AKQJxx

 

if partner has this opposite:

 

♠ KTxxx ♥ AKxxx ♦ xx ♣ x

 

and I get the obvious diamond lead to hand, I have 9 tricks to run.

Difficult hand to bid, I know.

[jtfanclub]

The problem seems to be with the auction

 

1C - 1S - 2NT - 3H

 

which may show 4 or 5 hearts.

 

With 4-card support I will obviously bid 4H. With 3 I will go 3NT, and partner will presumably push on to 4H.

 

And I might have a long suit in clubs, possibly even solid, and only a doubleton in both hearts and spades. And in NT we may be making 9 tricks but not 10. After all, what should I rebid with this:

 

♠ Qx ♥ Jx ♦KJx ♣AKQJxx

 

if partner has this opposite:

 

♠ KTxxx ♥ AKxxx ♦ xx ♣ x

 

and I get the obvious diamond lead to hand, I have 9 tricks to run.

Difficult hand to bid, I know.

Another "Am I weird" question.

 

My partner and I, who use NMNF, play "up the line" with the exception of 5-5. Therefore,

1♣ 1♠

2NT 3♥ shows 5 hearts and 5 spades, while

 

1♣ 1♥

2NT 3♠ shows 4 hearts and 5 spades.

 

The 2NT bid over 1♥ denies 4 spades, so there's no need to show the 4th spade.

 

This makes your example hand easy: it's the first auction mentioned above, followed by 3NT.

 

Am I the only person who plays this?

[the hog]

"Am I the only person who plays this?"

 

If I really do read what you write correctly, then the answer is "Yes"

Playing possible canape up the line is weird and theoretically unsound.

[cherdano]

I am quite happy with Wolff-signoff over the 2NT rebid after a minor opening:

3♣ is relay to 3♦ for all get-out hands (only way except pass to stop below game)

3♦ is new minor forcing

Everything else is natural and FG.

 

In your auction, 3♥ would show 5 hearts, as with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would bid NMF. 3♠ would imply 6 spades (with 5 use NMF) and slam interest (else 4♠).

[Cascade]

I play a modified Wolff sign-off that I am very happy with:

 

After

 

1m 1M

2NT ...

 

3♣ promises five of Major - can be weak or strong opener rebids as follows

 

3♦ denies three cards in the major - responder can pass or correct to 3M or 3♥ after 1♠ originally - all of these actions are weak. Any other action is strong - 3♠ after 1♥ shows 45 in Majors.

 

3M shows three-card support - responder can pass or bid game or try for slam

 

3♦ = natural GF

 

3♥ = natural GF 54 after 1♠, 6 hearts after 1♥

 

3♠ = natural GF 6 spades after 1♠, 44 in Majors after 1♥

[EarlPurple]

Well I know what do bid with nmf. Without it you get stuck on hands like that one (unless you use jtfanclub's methods, but I think they fall down on other hands).

 

Perhaps that's what makes nmf useful.