paulg Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 [hv=d=n&v=n&s=s9xxxht8xxdaqxxcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1NT (3♣) ?[/hv]We often explore the minimum holding for an action and this is one where a junior thought differently to me, although we ended up agreeing it was just too close. Do you double, for take-out, when partner's 1NT is (i) 14-16 (ii) 15-17? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I double either way. What's the worst that can happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Heck, I might double playing a weak NT!!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 dbl isnt GF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich-b Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I would double , realizing that if pd rebids 3NT , I have likely done the wrong thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 dbl isnt GFNo, but it is invitational so partner will often force to game with a hand that looks like a maximum. So we play at the 3-level opposite many hands and 4-level opposite a maximum. I didn't think this was so great a choice non-vul at the time, although I see my view is definitely minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 dbl isnt GFNo, but it is invitational so partner will often force to game with a hand that looks like a maximum. So we play at the 3-level opposite many hands and 4-level opposite a maximum. I didn't think this was so great a choice non-vul at the time, although I see my view is definitely minority. I can see the argument for passing - double could be trading +50/100 for defending 3♣ into -50/100 for declaring 3♦/♥/♠/NT. On the other hand, pass could turn +110/140 into -110. Not sure which is more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 What would be wrong with playing game opposite a maximum? And partner even knows to downgrade club length and values for offense so our auction has been helped by the opponents. Sometimes partner can make a good penalty pass too. I'm pretty sure this hand is the reason double exists. :ph34r: I'm just slightly less comfortable opposite 14-16 but it's too good of a double to think about passing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I feel like I set up jdonn well to elaborate on my posts when I keep them short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 If double isn't game-forcing but is invitational, how you you bid Q9xx Qxx AQJx xx opposite AKx Kxxx Kx Axx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 If double isn't game-forcing but is invitational, how you you bid Q9xx Qxx AQJx xx opposite AKx Kxxx Kx Axx? 12 cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Also too good for 1NT probably. However obviously the question is what does opener do with just one 4 card major and a maximum since there might be no fit. Probably people should agree that 4NT over 4M is to play and something like the next suit is keycard. I have to admit it has never come up. You could also play opener can't bid above 3NT without a maximum and both majors (that is probably the normal thing to do), or you could incorporate some kind of transfers. But no matter what you agree I would still want to double on the given hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 The point is if X is not GF, opener cannot jump in a 4 card suit since responder does not promise both majors. Opener also can't jump in diamonds ever obviously. I don't think this is really a big issue, you can be forced to game if you find a 4-4 major suit fit and be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 If double isn't game-forcing but is invitational, how you you bid Q9xx Qxx AQJx xx opposite AKx Kxxx Kx Axx? 12 cards I think that's my first ever 12-carder. And I spent ages constructing it too. I don't think this is really a big issue, you can be forced to game if you find a 4-4 major suit fit and be fine. Does that work? With 4-4 in the majors opener can cue-bid, so 3M can deny the other major. What if opener has one major but wants to accept the invitation? In one of my partnerships we've decided that if we find a 4-4 major fit we want to be in game, and if we haven't got a fit we'd rather play in 3NT than fester in a Moysian. Hence we play double as game-forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I play double as game forcing because it is consistent with the fact that partner will bid 3♣ with most positional stoppers. I am not familiar to the 14-16 range, but if it has anything to do with doubling on a 5 count oppsite a 15-17 hand it is a very very ugly thing to do. 15-17 is much closer I pass because I expect at least 1 suit to break 4-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Opposite 15-17, I'd double on this hand even playing it as game-forcing. Obviously that could lead to an absurd result, but the combined chances of finding a 4-4 major-suit fit and taking a penalty of 300 or so make it worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 In one of my partnerships we've decided that if we find a 4-4 major fit we want to be in game, and if we haven't got a fit we'd rather play in 3NT than fester in a Moysian. Hence we play double as game-forcing. The only area we disagree is playing 3N rather than 3M in a 4-3. I would rather play 3M if partner has less than 8 and 3 of my major and try to scramble it home than play 3N. Also, I think you should be able to stop in 3D, because if neither of you has a club stopper you need a LOT of values to make 5D. With a club stopper and no M I think opener should just bid 3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Opposite 15-17, I'd double on this hand even playing it as game-forcing. Obviously that could lead to an absurd result, but the combined chances of finding a 4-4 major-suit fit and taking a penalty of 300 or so make it worthwhile.This is my view too. I passed the actual hand opposite a 14-16 1NT. The junior at the other table also passed opposite 15-17 1NT. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 I am a junior. Good to know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Pretty obvious t/o x imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimonkey Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Shockingly I was the junior at the other table. Having read this thread I think there is a very strong case for double to be either GF or willing to pass whatever Partner bids, almost lebensol style. I will suggest this to my partners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Perhaps I should have added that pass was the winning call on this occasion. The par score is nine tricks in a major, but with a maximum and 4-4 majors partner will respond 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Perhaps I should have added that pass was the winning call on this occasion. The par score is nine tricks in a major, but with a maximum and 4-4 majors partner will respond 4♣. I suspect you were cooked on this hand no matter the interference. If you are going to TOX 3♣ you were probably going to Stayman over RHO's pass; passing partner's 2♦ response and raising his 2M to 3M which based on comments he would raise to 4M. Personally I think pass of 3♣ was the right choice as I would play X as penalty and over RHO's pass I'd Stayman and pass the response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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