1C-1D semipositive

[rbforster]

I think in broad terms, I'm more concerned than you are with finding a cheap place to land.  I want to be ahead of those using 1C-1S (neg) and be able to play 2m and opener's longer major...just for starters.

I have a more complicated structure for scrambling to a good place, but it assumes you're mostly dealing with limited hands (1♠ is any 2-suiter except both minors, 2 level bids are natural). I thoughts Woolsey would be pretty familiar and had the benefit of having a decent number of forcing first rebids so it could accomodate both the very strong and normal openers.

 

I don't like passing 1C-1H with minimum (say 15-17) 5H/4m hands.  I'm primarily doing so because I want not to have to use a a 2H rebid to show this hand.  I don't like 1C-1H, 2H with 5H/4m with a hand that could be 15-17 opposite a 0-4 pt hand.  Odds are we have less than half the deck and are not going to game.  If partner has both minors and corrects (seems infrequent) then we're at the 3-level.  I'd rather take my chances in 1H.

I guess actually this might not be such a bad idea. If you're on the low end of a strong club, say with ~15-18 and 5♥+, passing the double negative could be fine. That way if you later show 5+ hearts in the Woolsey system, it shows extras. For example,

 

1♣-1♥ double negative:

 

P 5+♥, no game interest opposite 0-4

2♣-2♦-2♥ majors; art ask for longer; heart preference showing extras (else pass 1♥)

2♦-2♥ 1 major; responder should super accept in hearts (2♠) freely since when partner has hearts, he has extras

[straube]

I'd like to see your complete structure. So far I have...

 

1C-1H,

.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

 

1C-1H, 1S

.....1N-3-4

..........2C-to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-4S/5H, weak

..........2S-5S/4m-strong

..........2N-minors

..........3m-GI

..........3H-4S/5H, strong

..........3S-5S/4H, strong (yuck)

..........3N-5S/5H, strong

 

.....2C-0-2

..........P-to play

.........2D-to play

.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong

.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong

.........2N-both minors

.........3H-5S/5H, strong

 

1C-1H

 

.........2C-GF almost

...............2D-3-4

...............2H-0-2

....................2S-f

....................3H-nf

....................3S-4S/5H

....................4m-5H/5m

..........2D-6M or 19+ 5H/4m or 22-23 bal

...............2H-no super-accept

....................2S-6 spades

....................2N-22-23

....................3m-5H/5m strong

..........2H-5S/4H, weak

..........2S-5S/4m, weak

..........2N-21-22

..........3L-strong invite

[rbforster]

Let me just point out a few areas for improvement in your structure:

 

1C-1H,

.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

I think you should probably be willing to pass here with 6+ hearts and/or 5+H/4+S assuming your hand isn't good enough to make game opposite an ace or something.

 

1C-1H, 1S

.....1N-3-4

..........2C-to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-4S/5H, weak

..........2S-5S/4m-strong

..........2N-minors

..........3m-GI

..........3H-4S/5H, strong

..........3S-5S/4H, strong  (yuck)

..........3N-5S/5H, strong

Here responder has already shown his values (3-4), so you shouldn't need both 2m to play AND 3m invitational. 3m should be GF I think.

 

.....2C-0-2

..........P-to play

.........2D-to play

.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong

.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong

.........2N-both minors

.........3H-5S/5H, strong

If 2H is weak or strong, then it's forcing. This means you'll be forced to 3H on minimum-opposite-bust on the likely heart preference. I think you should just pass 1H with these minimums, even with 4S.

 

1C-1H

.........2C-GF almost

...............2D-3-4

...............2H-0-2

....................2S-f

....................3H-nf

....................3S-4S/5H

....................4m-5H/5m

With 1S,2C,2D, and 2N all forcing under Woolsey, I don't really see the need for another "almost GF" response. You can probably just bid 1♠ and get the same range information out of partner's likely 1N/2C rebid. Also, I don't think you should be jumping past 3N on any hand without a self-sufficient suit until responder has been able to make some useful reply (your 4m rebid with 5/5 H+m for example).

 

The other parts seem ok, but like I said, I think I still prefer the Woolsey-based system at this point.

[straube]

1C-1H,

.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

I think you should probably be willing to pass here with 6+ hearts and/or 5+H/4+S assuming your hand isn't good enough to make game opposite an ace or something.

 

I've thought about that, but I think a hand with 5H/4S has too much game potential to just pass. Partner could have length in either or both majors which could make game a cinch. Plus it's nice to give partner a choice here. I think I want to bid with 6H hands just to jack the bidding up lest the opponents balance and find a spade/other fit.

 

]1C-1H, 1S

.....1N-3-4

..........2C-to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-4S/5H, weak

..........2S-5S/4m-strong

..........2N-minors

..........3m-GI

..........3H-4S/5H, strong

..........3S-5S/4H, strong  (yuck)

..........3N-5S/5H, strong

Here responder has already shown his values (3-4), so you shouldn't need both 2m to play AND 3m invitational. 3m should be GF I think.

 

Well, but I have 1C-1H, 3C as highly invitational....probably with a running suit. So 3m here might be a broken suit. An alternate use of 3m here would be 6m4M hands. Like 3C could show 4H/6D and 3D could show 4S/6D. 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2C- 2D then asks for a major if responder has tolerance for clubs.

 

.........2C-0-2

..........P-to play

.........2D-to play

.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong

.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong

.........2N-both minors

.........3H-5S/5H, strong

If 2H is weak or strong, then it's forcing. This means you'll be forced to 3H on minimum-opposite-bust on the likely heart preference. I think you should just pass 1H with these minimums, even with 4S.

 

It's strong but limited by the use of 1C-1H, 1S. Opener would GF 1C-1H, 2C with an even stronger hand. This route shows that opener might have contemplated a GF against a 1C-1H, 1S-1N answer....in which case a 3H rebid would have shown the strong hand. After 1C-1H, 1S-2C, 2H responder can still raise, knowing opener's pattern, but only with a good fit for the major.

 

1C-1H

.........2C-GF almost

...............2D-3-4

...............2H-0-2

....................2S-f

....................3H-nf

....................3S-4S/5H

....................4m-5H/5m

 

With 1S,2C,2D, and 2N all forcing under Woolsey, I don't really see the need for another "almost GF" response. You can probably just bid 1♠ and get the same range information out of partner's likely 1N/2C rebid. Also, I don't think you should be jumping past 3N on any hand without a self-sufficient suit until responder has been able to make some useful reply (your 4m rebid with 5/5 H+m for example).

 

Could be right to make 1C-1H, 2C GF. I could use it just to relay responder's shape. If I allow a negative (1C-1H, 2C-2H) response, then I don't see how else I can show 5H/5m without getting past 3N.

The other parts seem ok, but like I said, I think I still prefer the Woolsey-based system at this point.

 

I like Woolsey, but it would seem serendipitous to me if it turned out to be the best continuation because Woolsey is a defense to NT where the defenders don't have the bid and have the option of passing. Here we have to land (can pass occasionally), limit our hands, create GFs, invites, etc.

 

I'm mostly thinking of shelving this problem for the near term, but I'd like to see your structure again with revisions because I don't know what it is now. Also, thanks loads for all of your help. I think 1C-1D as all semipositives has a lot of potential.

[wank]

Rob i've blatantly stolen most of your stuff and fiddled with it a bit to imo optimise it. seems hypocritical to keep it quiet when i got it all from you so here it is:-

 

1C - 1H - 1S = non-GF in a minor, 19-24 with 5+ spades, 23-4bal, GF 5H 4+ clubs, GF 1 major, non-GF 4M-5m >>>> 1NT demi-semi positive >>>> 2m = nat no game may have 4cM, 2H = GF opposite a fit, either max 4H 5m or 23/4 bal, 2S = GF opposite a fit, either 5 spades or 4 spades 5m, 2NT = 5H 4+Clubs GF, 3M = GF single suiter

 

1C - 1H - 2D = 16-18(19)5S4m, 19-24 5H4m or GF both minors

1C - 1H - 2C = majors or 21-22 bal or GF bal (2NT rebid = 21-22, 3 minor bids available to unravel major fits with GF bal, 3M bids for GF majors)

1C - 1H - 2H = nat single suiter 19-24

1C - 1H - 2S = 16-18(19) 6+ spades

1C - 1H - 2NT = 5S 4+clubs GF

1C - 1H - 3m = nat GF

1C - 1H - 3M = nat GF with diamonds

 

positives:-

more definition with the major based hands in terms of point ranges

a lot of the time with this arrangement a minimum opener with a minor can escape in 2m

[straube]

I think if I pass 1C-1H with minimum 5H332 or 5H/4m hands that my frequency of opener's rebids will look something like...

 

P 7

1S 17

1N 50 (15-20, balanced or 4441, no 6m or 5H)

2C 5 (GF)

2D 11

2H 3

2S 3

2N 4

 

which is promising in that 1S receives significant use but disappointing in that 1N receives three times more use.

 

If 1C-1S is the DN, I suspect the distribution is more like...

 

P 9

1N 62

2C 5

other

 

which is also awful.

 

Some bid has to be sacrificed for the DN. I'm guesstimating that based on hcps and not QPs (if by QPs semipositives would be much more frequent) that likelihood of responses can be tabulated as roughly...

 

DN 20% 0-4

SP 35% 5-7 (8)

P 45% 8+

 

So grouping responses to 1C as....

 

1D semipositives 35%

1H dbl negatives 20%

1S+ positives 45%

 

has a certain amount of symmetry and the frequency curve ought to look pretty nice.

 

Still, I'm bothered by the infrequency of 1C-1H, 1S. Something is wrong here. Could be several things. Perhaps 1C-1H, 1N should be 16-20 and we use 13-15 NTs. Perhaps 1C-1H should show 0-5 and opener shows his balanced 20s. Perhaps 1C-1H, 1S should be used differently.

 

Anyway, still working on it.

[straube]

Well, the 1C-1H, 2C(GF) is seldom used. RobF gets better use of it showing the majors...

 

1C-1H,

 

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332

.....1S-1N(0-2)/2C(3-4)

..........P/2C-to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-medium hearts

..........2S-medium spades

..........2N-clubs, possible side

..........3C-diamonds, possible side

..........3D-strong H

..........3H-strong S

..........3S-strong m/m

.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441

.....2C-majors of uneven length OR 21-22

..........2D-asks

...............2H-4S/5H

....................2S-4 spades, 3-4

...............2S-5S/4H

...............2N-21-22

..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference

..........2S-4 spades, 0-2

.....2D-single major or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-minimum heart hand

................2S-minimum spade hand

................2N-23-24 balanced

................3m-5H/5m medium hand

.....2H-GF

..........2S-forced

................2N-25+

................3C-(31)(54)

.....................3D-relays

..........................3H-1-3-(54)

..........................3S-3-1-(54)

................3D-4-4-4-1

................3H-4-4-1-4

................3S-4-1-4-4

................3N-1-4-4-4

.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand

.....2N-21-22 with 6-cd suit (usually minor), wants to declare, usually balanced

..........3C-p/c

..........3D-3-4, asks if pd has 6M

...............3M-6M

..........3M-6 OM

.....3C-GF 5H/5m

..........3D-relays

...............3H-clubs

...............3S-diamonds

.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M

.....3H-GF 5S/5C

.....3S-GF 5S/5D

[rbforster]

Definitely looking better, straube. I still think you're missing a way to show 5/5 majors min, and I don't really like having to force to 3m on the 5H/4+m medium hands (2S showing 5S/4+m medium seems good tho). My strong club system has 1♦ with most 0-7 hands, so I've got a little more space to look for fits, while here opposite 1♥ there's less space. Let me see if I can come up with something...

[straube]

The 5M/5M isn't a problem because 1C-1H, 3D affords opener a rebid if responder tries to settle in 3H or 3S.

 

I think I have a flaw because I left out 5S/4m minimums. I suppose they responder could be dropped into 2S via 1C-1H, 2H-2S.

 

I'd like to see what you come up with.

 

Edit: well a weak 5M/5M could rebid 2C, but these hands take very little if partner has a fit.

Maybe 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C, 2S should show 5S/4m medium or 6S medium

[rbforster]

How about this for the double negative structure, again along the Woolsey lines. I've included more detail on the followups. Note I've decided that I wanted fewer NT ranges folded into other things, so I'm using the direct 2N opening as 21-22 (not in the strong club).

 

1♣-1♥ double negative (0-4):

 

P min 5+ hearts

1♠ unbalanced with a minor

1N 15-20 bal

2♣ both majors 5/4+

2♦ 6+ major or 23-24 bal

2M 5M/4+m inv (NF)

2N GF bal, 25+

3m GF 6+m

3M GF 5/5 M+D

 

Now with the followups in more detail:

 

P any min unbalanced hand with 5+ primary hearts (consider 1N with 5332)

 

1♠ unbalanced hand with a minor (all hands 4M/5+m or both minors, one-suited minors min or inv, GF 5M/4+m except 5M/5D)

......1N forcing and encouraging, but no rebid promised (all 3-4 hands)

......2C p/c, catchall and weak (0-2ish)

......2D both majors (4/4+), weak 0-2ish (NF)

......2M 6+ natural and weak 0-2ish

 

after 1N/2C, opener rebids can adjust his range accordingly. specifically, he can make a weak bid with inv values if partner bid 2C (0-2); likewise he can make a strong bid with an inv hand if partner bids 1N (3-4).

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-1N/2♣ (catchall, showing range):

...........P/2C 5+ min, could have 4cM (2H p/c)

...........2D 5+ min, could have 4cM (2H p/c)

...........2H GF art: 4M/5m or 5M/4m (2S relays)

..................2N various hands (3C relays)

........................3D 4S/5D

........................3M 5M/4C

..................3C 4M/5C (3D asks for M)

..................3D 4H/5D

..................3M 5M/4D

...........2S 5S/4+m min NF (3C p/c for m)

...........2N 5/4+minors GF

...........3m 4M/6+m GF

...........3M 5M/5C GF

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦ (weak with majors):

...........P 6+ or 5/5 minors min or inv

...........2M 4M/5+m NF (min or inv), could be (31)(54) too

...........2N 5/4+minors inv (NF)

...........3C 6+C min or inv

...........3D 5/4+ minors GF

...........3M 4+M fit GF (5M/4+m or 4M/5+m)

 

1N 15-20 could be semibalanced with 4441 or 22(54) (strong NT systems)

 

2♣ both majors 5/4+, any strength except 45/55 min (pass 1H)

.......2D asks for longer major (0-1 card difference, or good hand with 3+H)

.............2H inv 5+H/4+S

.............2S min 5+S/4+H

.......2H clear H pref, weak hand (2+ card difference)

.......2S clear S pref (2+ card difference)

 

(more coming on the 2C majors section, hopefully)

 

2♦ 6+ major, any strength except min H (pass), or 23-24 bal

.......2♥ catchall, no super accept for H

.......2♠ superaccept in H

.................P inv H

.................P/2S min S

.................2N 23-24 bal

.................3C distributional game try in M (3D asks for M)

.................3D inv S

.................3H GF H (could be inv after super accept)

.................3S GF S

 

2M 5M/4+m inv (2N good ask, P or 3C p/c bad hand)

2N GF balanced, 25+

3m GF 6+ with no side major (else 1S)

3M GF 5/5 M+D

 

In particular, this should handle the minimum shapely openers pretty well, getting them to a decent fit at the two level almost all the time.

[straube]

Hi Rob. Sorry but I'm mostly critical.

 

1. I don't want to open 2N with 21-22. I want to open those 1C and hopefully relay partner's positive or semipositive response. I'm guessing you want 1C-1H, 2C-2L, 2N to show an invite as it's a little hard to show extras after showing the majors. Is that why?

 

2. I disagree with 1C-1H, 1S-2D because there is no likelihood of a fit and we may have as few as 15 hcp and wind up playing 2N. Responder doesn't have the right to show majors here. I'm a little surprised that you don't instead react positively when your structure guarantees opener to have a minor. I mean, you could use 1C-1H, 1S-2D as both minors and opener would know he has a fit.

 

3. I miss having the 21+ (really unlimited) 6cd suit 2N bid. I think this hand (6cd suit but positional for NT) comes up a lot and the structure I gave lets us have our cake and eat it, too (opener gets to declare 3N or any suit except hearts)

 

4. I don't see the point really of 1C-1H, 3m GF minors and I don't like that opener hasn't heard whether responder is 0-2 or 3-4 at that point. What's responder really to do at this point? He doesn't have much room. Should his bids show 6-cd majors or a third negative? My structure had most of the medium/strong single-suit hands go through 1C-1H, 1S because they stand more to gain (knowing whether R has a value) than the giant 2-suited hands (where R's value is likely not useful). I also used transfers to opener's minor (available after both 0-2 and 3-4) so that responder could accept the transfer and opener could show a second suit or offer to play 3N as a COG.

 

Something I like about your structure very much is that 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2H is an artificial GF. Seems very logical. Thanks for posting your structure.

[rbforster]

1. I don't want to open 2N with 21-22.  I want to open those 1C and hopefully relay partner's positive or semipositive response.  I'm guessing you want 1C-1H, 2C-2L, 2N to show an invite as it's a little hard to show extras after showing the majors.  Is that why?

Well, I haven't found/invented a good 2♣ majors structure yet, but I was thinking that it might be useful to have opener's 2N rebid free for the majors hands. In particular, if responder takes a weak preference, i.e.

 

1♣-1♥ double negative

2♣-2M majors; preference

2N-? invite with only 4M

 

it seems like 2N might be a nice way to invite showing only 4 cards in M, since responder might well just have 3-2 or 2-1 majors or something and you don't really want to raise his suit if it's not a real fit. In that case, you'd want to actually play 2N some of the time, especially on the misfits. That said, maybe there's a way to get all this sorted out by overloading the 2♦ response, but I haven't figured all that out yet.

 

2. I disagree with 1C-1H, 1S-2D because there is no likelihood of a fit and we may have as few as 15 hcp and wind up playing 2N.  Responder doesn't have the right to show majors here.  I'm a little surprised that you don't instead react positively when your structure guarantees opener to have a minor.  I mean, you could use 1C-1H, 1S-2D as both minors and opener would know he has a fit.

There are a large number of hands that are 4M/5+m out there, more common by far than single suited minors (by about 2x), so it does make some sense to cater to those (and majors pay more I hear). Note that you won't end up playing 2N - responder can pass 2D with long diamonds and no major, or bid 3C with long clubs (which will always be 6+ if he lacks a major). Also, remember that you'll be avoiding some nasty misfits too, when responder is short in clubs it's not exactly ideal to bid 2♣ p/c when he's got both majors and opener may well have a 4cM himself.

 

I do agree that my 2D bid is one of the more aggressive additions to the structure, in that it works out very well for finding major fits but at the cost of sometimes pushing you to a higher level in the minors. You could just never respond 2♦ or use it as a natural long suit if you prefer (like the weak 2M bids), or maybe "multi" showing a better hand (3-4) with a 6cM.

 

3.  I miss having the 21+ (really unlimited) 6cd suit 2N bid.  I think this hand (6cd suit but positional for NT) comes up a lot and the structure I gave lets us have our cake and eat it, too (opener gets to declare 3N or any suit except hearts)

I guess I haven't looked so closely at that hand type; it certainly wasn't part of my design plans but mostly out of neglect. There are probably ways to free up some more 2N and 3N bids to show this if you really wanted within my structure.

 

4.  I don't see the point really of 1C-1H, 3m GF minors and I don't like that opener hasn't heard whether responder is 0-2 or 3-4 at that point.  What's responder really to do at this point? He doesn't have much room.  Should his bids show 6-cd majors or a third negative?  My structure had most of the medium/strong single-suit hands go through 1C-1H, 1S because they stand more to gain (knowing whether R has a value) than the giant 2-suited hands (where R's value is likely not useful).  I also used transfers to opener's minor (available after both 0-2 and 3-4) so that responder could accept the transfer and opener could show a second suit or offer to play 3N as a COG.

The different bids wtih long minors (min/inv/GF) can be pretty easily swapped around as long the min ones go through 1S and usually get out in 2m. Including the GF ones in the direct bids was mostly to cater to my 1♠-2♦ response (that you didn't like), since over that you only have one way to bid clubs weakly (3C) which meant that it worked out better if the GF hands bid directly instead (unless they had a 4cM, and then they could raise the 2♦ bidder in that major).

 

Something I like about your structure very much is that 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2H is an artificial GF.  Seems very logical.  Thanks for posting your structure.

Yeah, it's similar to what you had posted, and makes nice use of the "free space" you get from passing the 1♥ bid with some of the min heart hands.

[straube]

Rob, in this version I'm including your 1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2 majors). Opener should not be 2-2-(54) but could be (31)-(54) in which case he'll try the Moysian. All bidding would have to be natural after a 2D or 2M rebid.

 

1C-1H,

 

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or pathetic 6H

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M

..........2C/P of 2C=to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum

...............2S-no super-accept spades

....................3C-(31)(54)

.........................3D-relays

..............................3H-1-3-(54)

..............................3S-3-1-(54)

....................3D-4-4-4-1

....................3H-4-4-1-4

....................3S-4-1-4-4

....................3N-1-4-4-4

...............2N-super-accept spades (4+ spades)

.....................3C-1-3-(54)

.....................3D-3-1-(54)

.....................3H-GT spades

.....................3S-to play

.....................3N-1-4-4-4

..........2S-medium spades

..........2N-GF clubs, possible side

...............3C-waits

..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side

...............3D-waits

..........3D-GF H

...............3H-waits

..........3H-GF S

...............3S-waits

..........3S-GF m/m

...............3N-waits

..........3N-to play

.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441

.....2C-majors OR 25+ bal

..........2D-asks

...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum

....................2S-4 spades, 3-4

...............2S-5S/4H, minimum

...............2N-25+ bal

...............3C-4/6

...............3D-6/4

..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference

..........2S-4 spades, 0-2

.....2D-6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-minimum (not pathetic) 6H or medium 5H/4m

...............2S-medium 4S/5H

...............2N-23-24 balanced

...............3m-5H/5m

...............3H-medium 6H

.....2H-5S/4H, medium hand

.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand

.....2N-21-22 bal, possible 4441

.....3C-GF 5M/5C

..........3D-relays

...............3H-hearts

...............3S-spades

.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M

.....3H-GF 5H/5D

.....3S-GF 5S/5D

 

We're getting pretty good mileage I think out of the intervening 1S bid that comes from having 1H as the DN. But there's a cost. Think it's worth it? I think so but I'm not sure.

 

1C-1D (0-7), 0 base for positive responses, +2 for semipositives

1C-1H (0-4), +1 for unbalanced and +2 for balanced positives, +1 for semipositives

1C-1S (0-4), +1 for positive responses, +1 for semipositives

[rbforster]

I thought a little more about your comment on 20-21 balanced. If we need the space (to remove one of the 2N balanced hands), it'd probably be better to make the 2N opener stronger (23-24 or even GF balanced(!)) and keep the weaker ones in the strong club. This is because you won't lose your relays opposite a semipositive as often, since these very strong balanced hands are quite likely to go through a 1♣-1♥ double negative sequence which wouldn't have had relays anyway.

 

Rob, in this version I'm including your 1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2 majors).  Opener should not be 2-2-(54) but could be (31)-(54) in which case he'll try the Moysian. 

I do think the 2♦ majors bid is pretty good, for avoiding some bad misfits. It might not even be a Moysian! Afterall, if responder is 5521, 2♣ as p/c is pretty unpleasant and will miss a good 5-3 or 5-4 major fit when opener was (4x)x5 or (3x)(54).

 

Just some general comments on your most recent iteration:

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or pathetic 6H

I think in the interest of conserving space you should be willing to pass more hands here. If you hadn't been playing a strong club, the auction would have gone 1♥-P, so even passing 45xx or x6xx shouldn't put you behind the field. In contrast, we're going to end up playing several other contracts at a higher level since we can't stop after 1♣-1♥ except in 1N or at the 2 level.

 

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M

..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum

...............2S-no super-accept spades

...............2N-super-accept spades (4+ spades)

..........2S-medium spades

I thought this was a decent way to include the min long spade hand, which incidentally gets the contract right-sided as well since we go through our all-purpose 1♠ rebid. That said, I don't think you need a super-accept since almost by definition a minimum spade hand isn't going to make game opposite 0-4 very often and I don't think it's worth risking getting too high.

 

.....2D-6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-minimum (not pathetic) 6H or medium 5H/4m

...............2S-medium 4S/5H

...............2N-23-24 balanced

...............3m-5H/5m

...............3H-medium 6H

The medium heart hand is getting pushed up to 3H. With no super-accept, you can just pass 2H. Also, I think the 5H/4+m medium hands are getting a little too high - you're playing 2H unilaterally without letting partner in that you have a 4m side suit, and you're forcing to 3H with 5H/5m when partner weakly prefers hearts to your minor. I think having 2H for a 5H/4+m and a known strength is much better since then you can both stop in 2H much of the time, or know to bail out to the minor when partner doesn't fit your hearts.

 

Also, and I think this is important, I really don't like both the 6+H and the 5H/4+m hands in the same bid. The length difference makes it too hard for responder to know whether to super-accept or not. 3♥ and an Ace is probably a super-accept opposite the 1-suiter, but probably isnt enough to justify pushing on in the 5H/4m case.

 

1C-1D (0-7),  0 base for positive responses, +2 for semipositives

1C-1H (0-4),  +1 for unbalanced and +2 for balanced positives, +1 for semipositives

1C-1S (0-4),  +1 for positive responses, +1 for semipositives

Just a quick note, but the balanced positives are +0, not +2. TOSR for example uses 1♣-1♠-1N-2♣ for reds, and 2♦+ for balanced just like I suggested. I guess we'd have a few more hand types in there (16 3-suiters), but it's not a whole lot worse on average since those are pretty rare hands (esp the 5440s).

[straube]

2N as 25+ would work, but I have need of 2N. I want it to show 6C/4H but I'll settle on 6C/4D to make it GCC legal.

 

Ok, I'm willing to pass minimum 6H hands, but I like putting my medium 5H/4m hands in with my medium 6H hands. I'm basically in the same position as 1C-1D (0-7), 1H-1S (0-4), 2H. I plan never to show the minor with 5H/4m but I will with 5H/5m. I don't think I have the room to distinguish 6H from 5H/4m and I'm not very concerned about it.

 

I like that 1C-1H, 2D shows only hearts because it means that responder will only bid 2H or 2S and won't take the 2N bid away.

 

Unfortunately, I think rarely a hand will want to superaccept for spades a la 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2H. It's a pity I need this as a puppet because it would work nicely to have this bid relay for responder's shape. Sure, we're high, but I could divide the hands into 1-suited (4333, 5332, etc), 2-suited (4432, 5422 etc_, and 3-suited. Why would this work? Because the hands that would use it would primarily be 4441 hands and monster hands that could afford the space. Ah well.

 

Hm. I think I'm +1 for balanced and +2 for certain of the balanced because I used 1C-1S, 1N-2H to show 3-suited hands. In any case, my scheme is pretty close to Moscito. Can you find improvements for how the positives relay? Should be the same for the semipositives then.

 

Here's my latest then...

 

 

1C-1H,

 

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or minimum 6H

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M

..........2C/P of 2C=to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum

...............2S-all without 4 spades

....................P-spade minimum

....................2N-relays

.........................3C-four hearts

..............................3D-relays

...................................3H-four clubs

...................................3S-hearts

...................................3N-four diamonds

..........................3D-four clubs

...............................3H-relays

....................................3S-diamonds

....................................3N-clubs

...........................3H-diamonds

...............2N-four spades, four hearts

...............3C-four spades, four clubs

...............3D-spades

...............3H-four spades, four diamonds

..........2S-medium spades

..........2N-GF clubs, possible side

...............3C-waits

..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side

..........3D-GF H

..........3H-GF S

..........3S-GF m/m

...............3N-no fit

..........3N-to play

.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441

.....2C-majors OR 25+ bal

..........2D-asks

...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum

....................2S-4 spades, 3-4

...............2S-5S/4H, minimum

...............2N-25+ bal

...............3C-4/6

...............3D-6/4

..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference

..........2S-fit or 2-cd preference

.....2D-medium 6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-medium 6H or medium 5H/4m

...............2S-medium 4S/5H

...............2N-23-24 balanced

...............3m-5H/5m

...............3H-medium 6H

.....2H-5S/4H, medium hand

.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand

.....2N-21-22 bal, possible 4441

.....3C-GF 5M/5C

..........3D-relays

...............3H-hearts

...............3S-spades

.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M

.....3H-GF 5H/5D

.....3S-GF 5S/5D

[rbforster]

2N as 25+ would work, but I have need of 2N.  I want it to show 6C/4H but I'll settle on 6C/4D to make it GCC legal. 

For 2N you mean x4x6 or xx46 as a limited opening or a strong one? You could play a 2N opener as GF balanced and maybe add in some very strong distributional hands too (balanced hand doesn't bid past 3N in response to most of responders bids normally, so you could show some extra things that way). GCC lets you play whatever you want along the lines of a strong 2♣ opener.

 

I like putting my medium 5H/4m hands in with my medium 6H hands.  I'm basically in the same position as 1C-1D (0-7), 1H-1S (0-4), 2H.

Sure, and it's the same position as with weaker hands that end up bidding 1C-1D(0-7)-2H, and although here you've got a slightly stronger hand (since you can pass the 1H double negative with the weakest ones). But this is the single worst auction playing 1C-1D-1H as artificial and strong! Improving on that should certainly be a goal, if not a priority. In contrast, natural auctions will go 1H-P, 1H-1X-3m, both of which seem better than making responder guess whether to go hunting for a better fit after (essentially) 2H (5+).

 

think I'm +1 for balanced and +2 for certain of the balanced because I used 1C-1S, 1N-2H to show 3-suited hands.  In any case, my scheme is pretty close to Moscito. 

I see what's going on - you included 5332's in balanced, while TOSR shows those as single-suiters. This, together with adding the 3-suiters to your balanced block, meant it resolved pretty high (~3H for balanced, 3S for 4441, 3N for 5440). TOSR's CRASH scheme for bidding 4333/4432's gets all the balanced hands resolved around 3C-3D; 4441's come in around 3D and 5440's around 3S. So you are +1 to +2, but you're forgetting that now you're +0 on the 1-suiters since you removed the 5332's (which offsets starting one level higher initially than they do).

 

I'd remove the 5332's from balanced and put them in the 1-suiters, since the higher one-suiters have 7+ suits and can go past 3N pretty safely. OTOH, cramming in the very common balanced hands barely under 3N doesn't leave any space for a safe slam try and response without forcing to 4N (something you get in TOSR if you finish at 3D, 3H asks for strength and then with 3S/3N as first two weakest steps, you can still stop low).

 

Can you find improvements for how the positives relay?  Should be the same for the semipositives then.

Improvements how? The whole point of symmetric relay is that every single sequence has a meaning assigned to it, and roughly in probability order so common hands finish lower. It's mathematically impossible to fit in more shapes and/or at a lower level without sacrificing performance on others. Were you thinking of other goals here?

[akhare]

This is an aside to a very interesting discussion, but one thing to consider is that when responder holds the DN hand, the opps can intervene more often than not.

 

In other words, when responder holds a very weak hand, the chances are that bidding by the opponents may make the 1♥ vs. 1♠ DN distinction moot...

[straube]

I was going to put my 11-15 6C/4D into 2N (6C/4H works better but isn't GCC legal). I'm not married to the idea, but it takes a little pressure off of my 2C opening (now 6C, 6C/4M)

 

I redid the frequency for rebids after 1C-1H and it was something like (small sample)...

 

P-7

1S-28

1N-41

2C-11

2D-1

2H-0

2S-4

2N-7

 

As you can see, the 2D bid (medium H or medium H/m) didn't get a lot of use...probably if I ran enough hands it might. Anyway, I have a glitch in my structure because I can't show minimum 5S/4m. Probably 1C-1H, 2S should be minimum 5S/4m and 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2H-2S, P should be minimum 6S and 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2S should show medium 6S or medium 5S/4m.

 

Looking through hands, it seems like the 1C-DN hands average about 21 hcp for our side, so they're clearly contested. One can argue that 1C-1S preempts the opponents and doesn't let them have a spade overcall. OTOH, on these auctions we have the bid and have to land somewhere unless the opponents take it from us. They also have dbl (as well as pass) so I'm still thinking that leaving the space after 1C-1H helps us more than our opponents. What do you think?

 

How would you organize the positives then? Do the 1-suiters (including 5-card suits) start at 2D?

[straube]

1C-1H,

 

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or minimum 6H

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M

..........2C/P of 2C=to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum

...............2S-all without 4 spades

....................P-spade minimum

....................2N-relays

.........................3C-four hearts

..............................3D-relays

...................................3H-four clubs

...................................3S-hearts

...................................3N-four diamonds

..........................3D-four clubs

...............................3H-relays

....................................3S-diamonds

....................................3N-clubs

...........................3H-diamonds

...............2N-four spades, four hearts

...............3C-four spades, four clubs

...............3D-spades

...............3H-four spades, four diamonds

..........2S-medium spades or medium 5S/4m

..........2N-GF clubs, possible side

...............3C-waits

..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side

..........3D-GF H

..........3H-GF S

..........3S-GF m/m

...............3N-no fit

..........3N-to play

.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441

.....2C-majors OR 25+ bal

..........2D-asks

...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum

....................2S-4 spades, 3-4

...............2S-5S/4H, minimum

...............2N-25+ bal

...............3C-5S/4H, medium

...............3D-4S/6H, f

...............3H-6S/4H, f

..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference

...............2S-5S/4H, medium

..........2S-fit or 2-cd preference

.....2D-medium 5H/4m or medium 5H/4S or 23-24 balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-medium 5H/4m

...............2S-medium 4S/5H

...............2N-23-24 balanced

...............3m-5H/5m

...............3H-medium 6H

.....2H-6H, medium

.....2S-5S/4m, minimum

.....2N-21-22 bal, possible 4441

.....3C-GF 5M/5C

..........3D-relays

...............3H-hearts

...............3S-spades

.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M

.....3H-GF 5H/5D

.....3S-GF 5S/5D

[straube]

1C-1S, 1N

.....2C-minors or diamonds

.....2D-4432 or 4333

.........2S-4H432

...............3C-4S

....................3H-4423

....................3S-4432

...............3D-4C

....................3S-2434

....................3N-3424

...............3H-2443

...............3S-3442

.........2N-4S

...............3D-4C

....................3S-4234

....................3N-4324

...............3H-4243

...............3S-4342

.........3C-4m/4m

..............3H-2344

..............3S-3244

.........3D-3334

.........3H-3343

.........3S-3433

.........3N-4333

.....2H-3-suited, not short clubs 12/13

..........2N-short spade

...............3D-1444

...............3H-0445

...............3S-0454

...............3N-0544

..........3C-short heart

...............3H-4144

...............3S-4045

...............3N-4054

...............4C-5044

..........3D-4414

..........3H-4405

..........3S-4504

..........3N-5404

............

.....2S-5M332 6/8

..........3C-5H332

...............3H-2533

...............3S-3523

...............3N-3532

..........3D-5233

..........3H-5323

..........3S-5332

.....2N-5C332

..........3D-2335

..........3H-3235

..........3S-3325

.....3C-5D332

...........3H-2335

...........3S-3235

...........3N-3325

.....3D-4441

.....3H-4450

.....3S-4540

.....3N-5440

[rbforster]

Having thought about some of your ideas, I think there's a combination that should work pretty well. In particular, it gives you an out at the 2 level and still separates the 1-suited majors from the M+m hands. Here's the short version for now, we can fill in the GF hands in lots of ways...

 

1♣-1♥ 0-4

 

P min 5+H unbal

1S various hands, then 1N 3-4, 2C 0-2 p/c, etc

.........2C/P clubs min (4M ok)

.........2D diamonds min (4M ok)

.........2H spades min, or GF art

..............P spades min

..............2N+ various relays

.........2S 5S/4+m min

.........2N+ various GF's with minors

1N nat

2C majors

2D 1 major, inv+ or strong bal

2M 5M/4+m inv

2N strong bal

3C+ various GFs

[straube]

Thanks. What I'm tempted to do is to make 1C-1H, 1S-1N(2C)-2H a GF relay that asks partner's complete pattern. Obviously this is for a monster hand because it would take 'til 4N to know partner's shape. It would be convenient though because the responses start exactly one level higher than norm so it would be easy to remember. Opener would have the knowledge of 0-2 vs 3-4, too. Also, one less relay structure to remember :)

 

1C-1H,

 

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or minimum 6H

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M

..........2C/P of 2C=to play

..........2D-to play

..........2H-GF, relays for responder's complete distribution

..........2S-medium spades or medium 5S/4m

..........2N-GF clubs, possible side

...............3C-waits

..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side

..........3D-GF H

..........3H-GF S

..........3S-GF m/m

...............3N-no fit

..........3N-to play

.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441

.....2C-majors OR 20-21 balanced

..........2D-asks

...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum

....................2S-4 spades, 3-4

...............2S-5S/4H, minimum

...............2N-20-21 bal

...............3C-medium 5/4 or 4/5

...............3D-4S/6H, f

...............3H-6S/4H, f

..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference

...............2S-5S/4H, medium

..........2S-fit or 2-cd preference

.....2D-medium hearts or weak spades or 25+ balanced

..........2H-no super-accept for hearts

................P-medium hearts

...............2S-weak spades

...............2N-25+ balanced

..........2S-super-accept for hearts

...............P-weak, spades

.....2H-5H/4m, medium

.....2S-5S/4m, minimum

.....2N-23-24 bal, possible 4441

.....3C-GF 5M/5C

..........3D-relays

...............3H-hearts

...............3S-spades

.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M

.....3H-GF 5H/5D

.....3S-GF 5S/5D

[Crunch3nt]

Hi all. Only just found this forum. Sorry to be joining discussion Late. My preferred Big Club Responses are below:

 

I think 1D 8+ Any GF is wrong better to play 1D as 8+ Bal only

 

Objective - Unbalanced hand always shows shape. Weak hand becomes captain if opener is unbal only.

 

Unbalanced Hand = Singleton or void

Balanced = 4333, 4432, 5332, 6322, 5422, 7222

 

1D 8+ Bal (then 1H relay 1S+ Reverse Relay (Opener shows)

1H 0-5 any or 0-7 Bal or 6-7 unbal no major

1S 6+ HCP, 4+ H Unbal (poss canape minor) or 3 Suiter Short S

1NT 6+ HCP Both Majors 4/5 or 5/4 or 3 Suiter Short Minor Unbal

2C 6+ 5+S Unbal (S&Minor or Single Suited (SS))

2D 8+ C or C&S or C&D Unbal

2H 8+ 5+/5+ Minors or 3 Suiter Short H

2S 8+ 5+D & 4C Unbal

2NT 8+ 5+D & 4S Unbal

3C 8+ SS Clubs HS

3D 8+ SS Clubs MS

3H 8+ 3316

3S 8+ 2317

3NT 8+ 3307 or 3217

 

Outcomes:

1) 1D Bal response - all responder bal shapes come out by 3H (64.3% of Hands), If opener is bal as well then strong hand relays

2) Major shapes come out very efficiently (3C=5431, 3D=6421, 3C=6331 etc)

3) No major shapes not very efficient but deliberate trade-off

4) Over semi-pos major, opener can relay or show min support, or bid nat NF

5) Because Bal and major shapes are so efficient, can sort out strength at end of relay or can R+1 earlier if wish.

[straube]

Why go to the trouble of restricting 1D to 8+ balanced and then let opener relay with 1H? You should have opener reverse relay starting with 1H...not 1S. You're crossed-purposes.

 

You'll have horrible auctions after 1C-1H. I have difficulty after 1C-1H (0-4) but you're responding range is so much wider.

 

I would think that your 1C-1H is more frequent than your 1C-1D sequence which makes me think that something is wrong here.

[Crunch3nt]

You definitely should not have the strong hand have to show via reverse relay with a balanced hand - that is terrible. Much better for strong balanced hand to ask than to show. (64% of the time) We only reverse relay when opener is unbalanced so 1S+ has plenty of room.

 

1D balanced is better for handling 4th hand interference as well.

 

Over 1C-1H, we just play natural - natural isn't that bad you know - not as hood as relay, but not terrible :-)