1C-1D semipositive

[straube]

1C-1D=semipositive (not unbalanced 5S and <4H)

.....1H-natural hearts OR GF relay

..........1S-other

...............1N-GF relay

....................2C-bal, no major

.........................2D-

....................2D-C/D

....................2H-C

....................2S-any 4441

....................2N-D

...............2C-5 clubs

...............2D-5 diamonds

...............2H-6H

...............2S-5S/4H

..........1N-four spades, not four hearts (can't be 5S/4 or 6S)

...............P-5 clubs, minimum

...............2C-relay

....................2D-S/C reverser

....................2H-bal

.........................2N-5 spades

..............................3D-5-2-3-3

..............................3H-5-3-2-3

..............................3S-5-3-3-2

.........................3C-4 clubs

..............................3H-4-2-3-4

..............................3S-4-3-2-4

.........................3D-4-2-4-3

.........................3H-4-3-4-2

.........................3S-4-3-3-3

 

....................2S-S/D reverser

...............2D-5 diamonds

...............2H-6 hearts

...............2S-four spades

...............2N-misfitting, extra

......... 2C-bal, H/C

...............2H-bal

....................2N-5H

.........................3D-2-5-3-3

.........................3H-3-5-2-3

.........................3S-3-5-3-2

.....................3C-4S

.........................3H-4-4-2-3

.........................3S-4-4-3-2

.....................3D-4C

.........................3S-2-4-3-4

.........................3N-3-4-2-4

.....................3H-2-4-4-3

.....................3S-3-4-4-2

.....................3N-3-4-3-3

...............2S-H/C

..........2D-H/S

..........2H-H

..........2S-H/D

.....1S-four spades, f

..........1N-no fit

...............2C-4S/5C

...............2D-4S/5D

...............2H-4S/5H

...............2S-6S

.....1N-bal or semibalanced

.....2C-clubs

.....2D-diamonds

.....2H-5H/4m

.....2S-5S/4m

 

1C-1H=0-4 hcp OR 9+ balanced

.....1S-21+

..........1N-9+ balanced

...............2C-relay

..........2H-0-2 hcp

...............2S-natural, nf

...............2N-natural, nf

..........other-relaying out shape with 3-4

.....1N-15-20

..........2C-transfers, to play or to relay out balanced pattern

 

 

1C-1S=GF

.....2C

..........2H-C

..........2S-C/D

.....2D-C/H

.....2H-D

.....2S-D/H

1C-1N=GF S, S/D, S/C

1C-2C=GF H, S/H

1C-2D=semipositive 5S/D 2-suiter

1C-2H=semipositive S

1C-2S=semipositive 5S/C

1C-2N=3-suited, GF

[straube]

deleted

[akhare]

Interesting -- don't you think that 1♣ - 1♠ should be the balanced 9+ hand?

Given that it's so common, you want to rightside NT by allowing opener to just bid 1N.

 

It should be quite easy to sort out the minor suit oriented hands over 1♣ - 1♥ (0-4) or 9+ with no 5CM.

[straube]

Thanks for the feedback. It would certainly be nice for opener to grab the NT.

 

One of the things I liked about 1C-1H as a two-way was that in competition, opener could treat the bid as negative and let responder double back in with the balanced hand. At that point, opener will know 8 of partner's suit cards. If instead 1H is negative OR unbalanced with mostly minors, then a subsequent double by responder is less meaningful. I mean, imagine 1C P 1H (3H) P P dbl.

 

If 1C-1S is 8+ balanced, then I have the ability and room to reverse relay a goodly number of hand types. Maybe a third of the unbalanced types. That's a positive that my scheme lacks. I can never reverse relay.

 

But it's probably more useful for declarer to grab the notrump when partner has an unbalanced hand with minors than when he has a balanced hand. 1C-1S use isn't fixed in stone, but I'm likely to put C, D, C/D, and other combinations with minor suits into it.

 

Have you seen any math errors in this? I've noticed that I may not have room for the 5440s. I think I have room for at least most, but it's close.

 

Btw, something I've avoided is the loss that comes from 1C-1S (neg), 1N. Seems like there's a big difference when playing a strong club relay system between 1C-1S, 1N nf and 1C-1H, 1N nf.

[rbforster]

1C-1D=semipositive (not unbalanced 5S and <4H)

.....1H-natural hearts OR GF relay

 

1C-1S=GF

Have you considered using the same relay structure over 1♣ for GF hands that you use after 1♣-1♦-1♥ for semipositive ones? The right-siding conditions are a little different, but broadly they're quite similar and I think that would really let you take advantage of the same symmetric relay approach in both situations. I would think that having a cheap unambiguous GF relay (1♥) would be one of the main advantages of having a purely semipositive response (with no double negative hands).

 

This would leave all your 1♣-1♥ as just 0-4.

[straube]

I don't think I understand. I'd love to have an unambiguous 1H, but where do I put the 9+ balanced? I'm tight on space for the GF hands. Also, I don't see how they can be quite parallel because 1C-2D/2H/2S are semipositives for spades while 1C-1D, 1H-2D/2H/2S are semipositives for hearts. If you wouldn't mind writing out what you have in mind, I'd like to see it. Thanks

 

I think I see a problem with this structure...1C-1H, 2L-? no relays when responder has 9+ balanced. Opener is limited, but we're at a disadvantage when responder has a superpositive.

[rbforster]

If you wouldn't mind writing out what you have in mind, I'd like to see it. 

Here's the very high level version:

 

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)

1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)

1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

 

In more detail, maybe something like this:

 

1♣-1♦ any semipositive

.....1♥ art, enough extras to GF

..............1♠+ shape relays by semipositive hand (see below)

.....1♠ two-suiter, limited (not both minors)

.....1N+ natural and limited (2m = 5+, 2M = 6+)

.....2N both minors 5/5+, limited

 

1♣-1♥ double negative

.......1♠ relay, but probly not necessarily GF

.......1N+ natural and limited

 

For the 1♠+ relays, used for both GF and semipositives, you can try to make your own, but here's an example:

 

1♠ balanced or diamonds

.......2♣ diamonds or minors

...............2♥ diamonds

...............2♠+ minors

.......2♦+ balanced

 

1N spades

.......2♦ spades and clubs

.......2♥ spades

.......2♠+ spades and diamonds

 

2♣ hearts or majors

.......2♥ hearts

.......2♠+ majors

 

2♦ hearts and clubs

2♥ clubs

2♠+ hearts and diamonds

[straube]

Very symmetric. I like it.

 

I'm disappointed that 1C-1D, 1H isn't a 2-way bid (hearts or relay); that feature enabled my structure to identify not only 2-suiters but the respective length of 2-suiters for the minimal openers.

 

OTOH, you're going to be able to show quite a few patterns with your 1C-1D, 1S. I assume the continuation 1N-2C probably shows 5/4 or 4/5 in the majors and 2D asks for the longer major. However, you continue, seems like you have many possibilities.

 

I also like how you use (I think) 1C-1H, 1S...not as a bigger hand, but I imagine to show various distributions (more 2-suiters). Perhaps you use 1C-1H, 2C as the 21+ relay.

 

Anyhow, much to commend. Do you have more of it written out?

 

Also, I'd be interested to know what awm thinks of your structure and the one I proposed. I think I like yours better, but I still like mine a little.

[akhare]

Here's the very high level version:

 

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)

1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)

1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

Very interesting, but 1♣ - 1♦ (SP) is still as vulnerable to 4th hand preemption as 1♣ - 1♦ (negative).

 

Perhaps the trick might be turn this on its head and play 1♣ - 1♦ (GF) and 1♣ - 1♥ (double negative) and the rest as SPs? The downside of course, is that we may end up too high...

[straube]

Here's the very high level version:

 

1♣-1♦ any semipositive (then 1♥ GF relay)

1♣-1♥ double negative (then 1♠ relays)

1♣-1♠+ GF shape relays

Very interesting, but 1♣ - 1♦ (SP) is still as vulnerable to 4th hand preemption as 1♣ - 1♦ (negative).

 

Perhaps the trick might be turn this on its head and play 1♣ - 1♦ (GF) and 1♣ - 1♥ (double negative) and the rest as SPs? The downside of course, is that we may end up too high...

It's vulnerable, but it's an "honest" bid. Our best spot could be 1N and like you said, if we inverted it with the positives, we could wind up too high. Also, think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7). It's far far better. The cost is that we can't reverse relay and our positives are up a step. Reasonable costs I think for leaving opener able to show various shapes opposite both the semipositives AND the negative.

 

Where do the 3-suited hands go? That's my only concern. Otherwise, I think I've found what I want to play.

[straube]

Looking for suggestions...

 

1C-1S, 1N

.....2C-minors or diamonds

.....2D-hearts or any 4333

..........2S-4S or 4333

...............3C-4S

....................3H-4-4-2-3

....................3S-4-4-3-2

...............3D-3-3-3-4

...............3H-3-3-4-3

...............3S-3-4-3-3

...............3N-4-3-3-3

..........2N-5 hearts

..........3C-four hearts, four clubs

...............3H-2-4-3-4

...............3S-3-4-2-4

..........3D-2-4-4-3

..........3H-3-4-4-2

.....2H-3-suited

..........2N-minor shortness

...............3D-club shortness

....................3S-4-4-4-1

....................3N-4-4-5-0

....................4C-4-5-4-0

....................4D-5-4-4-0

...............3H-4-4-1-4

...............3S-4-4-0-5

...............3N-4-5-0-4

...............4C-5-4-0-4

..........3C-heart shortness

...............3H-4-1-4-4

...............3S-4-0-4-5

...............3N-4-0-5-4

...............4C-5-0-4-4

..........3D-1-4-4-4

..........3H-0-4-4-5

..........3S-0-4-5-4

..........3N-0-5-4-4

 

.....2S-bal, 4 spades

..........3C-4 clubs

..........3D-etc

.....2N-bal, 5 spades

.....3C-5 clubs

..........3H-2-3-3-5

..........3S-3-2-3-5

..........3N-3-3-2-5

.....3D-minors

..........3S-2-3-4-4

..........3N-3-2-4-4

.....3H-2-3-5-3

.....3S-3-2-5-3

.....3N-3-3-5-2

[akhare]

Also, think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7). It's far far better.

Is it far better in that it allows opener to know that we own at least half of the deck? If so, given the relative infrequency of the 0-4 range, opener may assume that it's the case for 1♣ - 1♦ (negative) and be right most of the time.

 

IMO, for SP responses, it's much more important to identify the hand type and get the suits on the table ASAP (especially on hands with one or more major suits)...

[straube]

I see a big difference between the 0-7 and the 5-7 range. For example, in competitive auctions (fourth hand speaks), one can have forcing passes through agreed levels.

 

 

1C-P-1D (semi)-1S-P would be forcing

 

1C-P-1D (semi)-3C-P would not be forcing

 

1C-P-1D (semi)-1S-2H would be forcing

 

1C-P-1D (semi)-2C-P-P-2H would not be forcing

 

Now the trouble imo with semipositives that are 1C-1H and 1C-1N and higher (as are played in Moscito I think) is that they don't leave enough room for finding fit. 1C-1H particularly (those without 5M4 or 6M) is extremely preemptive to our side.

 

1C-1H(semipositive without 5M/4 or 6M), 1S=GF relay (so unavailable for fit-finding)

So many auctions go 1C-1H, 1N

 

True, it's good to show the major suit semipositives, but together they account for something like 40% (guesstimate) of the semipositives and they can usually muster a bid at the 2-level and perhaps the 3-level if there's subsequent interference.

 

If 1C-1D (semipositive), then we could have something like...and this is a rough draft

 

.....1S-has a minor suit

..........1N-relay

...............2C-clubs and a major

....................2D-asks major

...............2D-diamonds

...............2M-4M/5D

...............2N-4D/6C

...............3C-6D/4C

..........2L-six-card suit

.....1N-balanced

.....2C-majors

..........2D-asks longer major

.....2D-6M

..........2H-no invite opposite hearts

..........2S-invite opposite hearts, not spades

..........2N-asks major and strength

.....2H-5H/4m

.....2S-5S/4m

.....2N-5m/5m

.....3C-clubs

 

and with Rob F's structure, we have almost as much fit-finding after 1C-1H because 1S is available there, too.

[rbforster]

think about how much better this is than 1C-1D negative (0-7).  It's far far better.  The cost is that we can't reverse relay and our positives are up a step.  Reasonable costs I think for leaving opener able to show various shapes opposite both the semipositives AND the negative.

 

Where do the 3-suited hands go?  That's my only concern.  Otherwise, I think I've found what I want to play.

Glad you like it - I just made it up in response to your suggestion, so just be aware it's not field tested. I do agree that having a 1♦ as 5-7 is much better than 0-7 in competition since you can play low level forcing passes.

 

In this case, I'd recommend putting 4441/5440's into "balanced". Normally I put 5440's into 2-suited, but here the 2-suited relays are already pretty high and the balanced relays should have more free space. You can use TOSR relays over all of the ones I gave, just +1 step from the usual TOSR schemes for 1-suited and 2-suited hands. You'll need to fit in the 3-suiters with balanced, but that shouldn't be too hard.

 

As for non-relay continuations, I have some favorite schemes I like (outlined above), but you don't have to use those. In fact, in both the situations:

 

1♣-1♦-1♠+ any non-GF hand by opener

1♣-1♥-? opener's rebid after a double negative

 

you can essentially play any of your favorite "1NT Defenses", where the 1♠ bid takes the place of double (and 1N is natural and limited). So here's a DONT Version:

 

1♣-1♦: "DONT style" fit finding for minimum openers

 

1♥ GF relay

1♠ 1 long suit (then by responder 1N=good hand, 2♣=bad hand, pass/correct)

1N natural, balanced or 4441

2♣ clubs+another

2♦ diamonds+major

2♥ majors

2♠ natural

2N both minors

3X natural long suit

 

Similarly you could play Woolsey, Meyerson, Cap, etc. You could even give up on the GF relay over the double negative and play the same thing there. In particular, if you picked a method with a lot of forcing bids, you wouldn't need the GF relay since opener could just describe his hand without fear of being passed. Here's an example:

 

1♣-1♥: "Woolsey Style" fit-finding after double negative

 

1♠ 4 card major + longer minor; or GF balanced, one minor, or 5+M/4+♣ (rebids 2N or 3m or 3M)

1N non-invitational balanced (15-20)

2♣ both majors; or 21-22 balanced (rebids 2N)

2♦ one major; or 23-24 balanced (rebids 2N)

2M 5+ major, 4+ minor (NF)

2N both minors

3m long minor (NF)

3M 5+M, 4+♦ GF

 

You could just as easily play this version over 1♣-1♦ by minimum openers for consistency, just omitting the GF hand options in some of the rebids.

[straube]

Can you improve upon the 1C-1S scheme I posted?

 

I'm not wild about playing DONT over 1C-1D, 1H. I don't want responder to have to guess which higher ranking suit opener has. I posted a structure based on TOSR which does that. Their 1C-1D, 1S shows an unspecified minor suit and their rebids are built around that.

 

TOSR also uses 1C-1D, 1S-1N as a strength showing rebid (whereas 2C would be p/c). Now I don't know whether TOSR's 1N promises a rebid. It doesn't seem like ours should. Why split up a 5-7 point range before hearing opener's description of his hand? No. Opener should just show his hand (doesn't have enough to GF) and then responder should decide whether to invite opposite that. Certainly could depend on the fit shown.

 

So, in a sense, we have 1C-1D, 1S-2C freed up for something else. Clubs possibly. Probably a better use for it.

 

I've pretty much given up on 1C-1H, 1S being GF relay. Seems like it should mirror 1C-1D, 1S.

 

Would you mind explaining more of the Woolsey structure? I don't understand 1C-1H, 1S continuations in particular.

 

The other thing I want to think about is what the point count ranges should be for the semipositive. If it's a narrow 5-7 that won't come up as frequently as 3-5 slam points (A=3,K=2, Q=1) and we won't have as many 1C-1D auctions. What's best strategy? I'm thinking to widen the range a little so as to include hands that intend to GF later (like an 8 or bad 9 hcp hand), but then responder can never be dropped in an auction.

[rbforster]

I'm not wild about playing DONT over 1C-1D, 1H.

I agree, I was just giving that as an example. It's bad especially over the double negative since almost all the DONT bids are natural so opener would need to jump or something with a very strong hand. Having cheap artificial forcing bids can still get you out at the 2 level if responder shows a very weak hand.

 

I've pretty much given up on 1C-1H, 1S being GF relay.  Seems like it should mirror 1C-1D, 1S.

TOSR also uses 1C-1D, 1S-1N as a strength showing rebid (whereas 2C would be p/c).

 

Would you mind explaining more of the Woolsey structure?  I don't understand 1C-1H, 1S continuations in particular.

In case you aren't familiar with Woolsey, normally the responses (to 1N-X showing 4M/5+m) are 2♣ p/c, 2♦ asking for partner's major, and 2M long suit and natural. Here we also have the additional 1N response, so I'm not sure what the best approach is to best make use of this. Rearranging one or two things, how about something like this? It's actually fairly similar to the minor-oriented one you suggested.

 

1♣-(1♦ or 1♥):

 

1♠ 4M/5+m min; or GF: ♣,♦,minors, or 5M/4+♣

........1N asking with a good hand, promises a rebid (opener bids as over 2♣ below)

........2♣ p/c with a bad hand (in context)

...............P 4M/5+♣ min

...............2♦ 4M/5+♦ min

...............2M 5+M/4+♣ GF

...............2N both minors GF

...............3m long minor GF

.........2♦ asking for major, could be a good hand

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2M 4M/5+ minor min

...............2N both minors GF

...............3m long minor GF

...............3M 5+M/4+♣ GF

..........2M long suit, weak hand

 

1N non-invite bal (15-18 over 1♦, 15-20 over 1♥); strong NT systems on

2♣ both majors or 21-22 bal (2♦ asks for longer, 2M weak preference; then GF hands may raise/jump or bid 2N if balanced)

2♦ 1 major or 23-24 bal (2♥ p/c weak, 2♠ p/c likes hearts, 2N good hand; GF hands jump or bid 2N if bal)

2M 5+M/4+minor NF (2N good hand ask; 3♣ p/c bad hand)

2N GF balanced 24+

3m long minor NF (natural continuations)

3M 5+M/4+♦ GF (natural continuations)

 

The above is mostly designed to work after the double negative, so some of opener's rebids will be undefined in the semipositive sequence. You could use those to refine the distributional but limited hands opener might have (i.e 6/5's or 6/4's). For example,

 

1♣-1♦:

 

1♠ 5+ primary minor: 4M/5+m, 5M/6+m, or 6/4 minors (all min hands)

........1N asking with a good hand, promises a rebid (opener bids as over 2♣ below)

........2♣ p/c with a bad hand (in context)

...............P 4M/5+♣ min

...............2♦ 4M/5+♦ min

...............2M 5M/6+m NF (natural continuations, 3♣ p/c)

...............2N 6♦4♣

...............3♣ 6♣4♦

........2♦ asking for a major

...............2M natural

...............2N 6♦4♣

...............3♣ 6♣4♦

2N 5/5+ minors

3m long minor

 

what the point count ranges should be for the semipositive.  If it's a narrow 5-7 that won't come up as frequently as 3-5 slam points (A=3,K=2, Q=1) and we won't have as many 1C-1D auctions. What's best strategy?  I'm thinking to widen the range a little so as to include hands that intend to GF later (like an 8 or bad 9 hcp hand), but then responder can never be dropped in an auction.

With a 16+ club, I think 5-7 is about right subject to judgement (downgrade some soft 8's). Whether to widen your range (in essence including some GF hands in 1♦) is something you will need to test once you settle on a system after 1♣-1♦. I think the important thing is that your system be able to handle the usual semipositives hands well. It may also be the case that responder ends up having forcing bids he can make that allow some slightly stronger-but-control-poor hands to be handled also, but I wouldn't design it with that in mind (the GF hands can always relay directly).

[akhare]

I do agree that having a 1♦ as 5-7 is much better than 0-7 in competition since you can play low level forcing passes.

What kind of structure would you recommend over 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) and higher level interference?

 

For example, some pairs play pass / double inversion after 1♣ - <Positive> - (3X). Basically, X by opener isn't for penalty and shows at least two other places to play and P asks for a X.

 

I don't think that this agreement necessarily makes sense after say 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) - 3♠.

 

Should a direct bid by opener, say 2♠ after 1♣ - 1♦ (5-7) - (2♥) be to play and should stronger hands start off with a X?

[straube]

I'm still thinking about Rob's structures.

 

As to Atul's question...I'm thinking we're in a forcing auction up through 2N...

 

1C P 1D (2S)

.....dbl by opener is takeout

.....pass by opener is forcing and invites a dbl by responder (for takeout) or

..........2N or 3L. Responder's bids are not forcing

 

1C P 1D (2H)

.....dbl by opener is takeout

.....2S by opener is forcing

..........2N by responder is his most negative bid...doesn't promise a heart stopper

 

1C P 1D (3C)

.....3D is forcing

 

1C P 1D (3C)

.....P is not forcing

 

1C P 1D (3C) P P

.....3D is not forcing

 

Not sure what happens at low levels where relays are still possible. Seems like we'd do better to revert to natural bidding over anything but double.

[straube]

I'm still digesting those structures, but they seem strong...especially for the 1H response.

 

I've fretted a bit because it's usually just death to have a weak responder bid NT first, but this structure only allows responder to bid NT when opener has a distributional hand. Responder also gets to show whether he is top or bottom of his 0-4 range. I assume, however, that you meant that 1N only promises a rebid after 1C-1D and not 1C-1H (unless opener makes a GF).

 

1C-1H, 2C-

Good use of the 2C rebid but it would be really nice to know whether responder has a 4-card major or not...because the 21-22 pt hand could raise a fitting major instead of rebidding 2N.

 

Perhaps

1C-1H, 2C-2D should ask, but may have 3S/1H

1C-1H, 2C-2H should promise only 3H

1C-1H, 2C-2S should promise 4S and deny 4H (cause you might as well show what you can than what you can't)

 

Wrong-sided though. But maybe 1C-1H, 2C-2S should show 4S and 0-2 hcp.

 

What would 1C-1H, 2C-2H, 2S show? 6S/4H?

 

I think Atul was asking for Rob's opinion on agreement after competition over 1C-1D. I'm interested, too.

 

So in Woolsey, does 1C-1S, 2D promise both 4-card majors? I'm a little concerned about losing a natural diamond bid by responder.

 

As 1C-1H, 1S-1N shows something...I think the continuations should take advantage of that. You have 2 ways of showing 5M/4C for example...one GF and the other not...but opener hasn't been able to take advantage of knowing whether responder has a value before deciding whether to GF.

[straube]

How about something like...

 

1C-1H, 1S

.....1N-0-2

..........P-minimum, 5 clubs

..........2C-GF

..........2D-minimum, 5 diamonds

..........2M-5M/4m, nf but extras

..........3C-6 clubs

.....2C-3-4, denies 4 clubs

..........2D-5 diamonds, minimum

..........2M-four M, forcing

...............S1-denies 4 diamonds, denies 4M

...............S2-shows 4 diamonds, denies 4M

...............S3-shows 4M

..........3M-5M, 4m

....................3N-no fit

.....2D-3-4, promises 4 clubs, denies 4 diamonds

.....2M-0-2, 6 cds

.....2N-3-4, 4/4 minors

..........3M-5M/4m

[rbforster]

I assume, however, that you meant that 1N only promises a rebid  after 1C-1D and not 1C-1H (unless opener makes a GF).

I had intended it for 1C-1H too. Showing the top of your 0-4 range only matters opposite the "almost but not quite GF" openers and wrong-sides NT, but remember that 1♠ is a minor-oriented distributional hand so probably we're playing 2m instead of 1N anyway. If opener does have a big hand, knowing partner isn't completely broke will help too; specifically when the 1♥ bidder bids 2♣ (total bust) instead of 1N, even a very strong opener can be warned to pass at a lower level.

 

1C-1H, 2C-  [majors]

Good use of the 2C rebid but it would be really nice to know whether responder has a 4-card major or not...because the 21-22 pt hand could raise a fitting major instead of rebidding 2N.

In Woolsey, 2C-2M just shows a length preference not a fit - responder could have 3-1/3-2/2-1 majors for example. I would suggest 2M (especially 2♠) generally be a weak response (in context), since you could use 2♦ (asking for opener's longer major) or 2N to show various invitational hands. Also, since 2M doesn't guarantee a fit, probably the balanced hand would still want to bid 2N over most of the responses.

 

in Woolsey, does [edit]X-2D promise both 4-card majors?  I'm a little concerned about losing a natural diamond bid by responder.

2♦ shows an inability to tolerate playing in clubs, since 2♣ would be p/c. A big diamond fit could be missed of course, although typically if responder has short clubs (<2), he'll have at least 3-3 majors but he certainly won't have 4-4 majors all the time.

 

As 1C-1H, 1S-1N shows something...I think the continuations should take advantage of that. 

Yes, that's not available in Woolsey so you could try to take additional advantage of that. Perhaps you could handle weak hands with long diamonds there too, so that 1N-2♣-2♦ was natural, or conversely, possibly some sort of artificial invitational bid asking for opener's major. There are lots of possibilities.

 

You have 2 ways of showing 5M/4C for example...one GF and the other not...but opener hasn't been able to take advantage of knowing whether responder has a value before deciding whether to GF.

Yes, that's right. Because the direct bids are natural (1C-1DH-2M), I want responder to be able to pass with a minimum in context. If opener is really so strong that this might miss game, he can bid them the other way. Remember that since you've already limited responder strength by his 1♦ or 1♥ response to a known 3-4 point range, it should be pretty easy for both opener to evaluate how much he needs for game, and for responder to pass these NF bids on the low end (and raise/invite or generally bid on if on the high end).

 

I think Atul was asking for Rob's opinion on agreement after competition over 1C-1D.  I'm interested, too.

You can just relay over low level interference (P=GF relay, limited hands bid naturally or X for takeout). Probably you can do this through 1♣-1♦-(1N), where you are on a +1 track for 1N interference (and lower correspondingly for lower interference, gaining room from X or 1♥ overcalls). Higher than that I'm not sure, but probably forcing pass thru 2N or something, with takeout doubles and natural bids on good suits is probably ok.

[straube]

I'm thinking that we're putting too many hand types through 1C-1H, 1S. I think the bid should promise a 5-card minor.

 

With a big 5M/4m hand, we can use 1C-1H, 2D. With a 0-4 pt hand, responder should not be super-accepting hearts with less than four hearts or perhaps three with shortness. Same if he super-accepts also for spades as well (1C-1H, 2D-2N).

 

We haven't made use of continuations at the three-level...

 

1C-1H, 2D-2H...

.....3C-5H/4C-f

.....3D-5H/4D-f

.....3H-5S/4C-f

.....3S-5S/4D-f

 

We also haven't defined 1C-1H, 3L.

 

We obviously can't be embarrassed by a heart (or heart and spade) super-accept after 1C-1H, 2D.

 

As to the 1C-1H, 1S-1N auction, I don't feel like that should promise a rebid...if indeed it is best for that to show the 3-4 pt hand.

 

If as opener, I hold AQxx x Kxx AKxxx, I might want to get out in 2C. My other obvious choice is 1N...but I risk being transferred into hearts. We also haven't dealt with the (31)(54) hands which (I think) ought to be able to sign off in 2m.

 

So 1C-1H, 1S-1N (promising a rebid),2C-2D(asking major), 2S-2N and we're in 2N with a misfit and 19-20 hcp. I think that should be avoided.

 

1C-1H, 1S-1N (3-4)

.....2C-clubs (could have 4M or 4D even)

..........2D-asks side major, fitting in clubs, forcing to 3C

.....2D-diamonds (could have 4M or 4C)

..........2H-4+ hearts, fitting in diamonds, forcing to 3D

.....2M-M/unspecified minor, f

..........2N-not fitting

...............3m-4M/5m invitational

...............3M-corresponding minor, f

 

 

About the only thing the 0-2 hand has to offer is fit for opener. As opener is known to have a minor, responder can super-accept for clubs right away.

 

1C-1H, 1S-2C (0-2, not four clubs)

1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2, four clubs, not four diamonds)

1C-1H, 1S-2M (0-4, 6M)

1C-1H, 1S-2N-(0-2, both minors)

 

What would 1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2H-2S show?

 

I still like that as a correction with spade preference allowing

 

1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2S to show 0-2, 4 spades

 

With 3-4 and 4 spades, seems like a jump/raise to 3S or puppet stayman will work fine.

[straube]

I was able to confirm that TOSR's 1C-1D (0-7), 1S-1N (5-7), 2m is nf. I don't think 1C-1H(0-4), 1S-1N(3-4) should promise a rebid over 2m.

 

How about...

1C-1H(0-4), 1S-distributional and limited

 

1C-1H (neg)

.....P-5H/4m, weak

.....1N-15-20

.....2C-GF except for 2C-2H, 2S-2N, 3S and 2C-2H, 3H

..........2D-3-4

..........2H-0-2

...............3S-4S/5H

...............4m-5H/5m

.....2D-6c M or 22-23 or 5H/4m inv

..........2H-p/c

...............2S-6 spades

...............2N-22-23

...............3m-5H/5m inv

.....2H-4S/5H, weak

.....2S-5S/5C

.....2N-21-22

 

1C-1H,

.....1S-1N (3-4) or 2C (0-2)

..........2C/p-clubs

..........2D-diamonds

..........2H-5S/4H

..........2S-5S/5D

 

3-level not used except against 1C-1H, 1S-1N=3-4

..........2N-inv/ minors

..........3m-inv

..........3H-5/5 majors, invite

..........3S-5/5 majors, almost f

[rbforster]

I had mostly intended responder's 1N rebid to promise a rebid in the semipositive sequence

 

1♣-1♦ strong; any semipositive 5-8(-)

1♠-1N various minor hands; good hand 6(+)-8(-)

...

 

In this situation, responder is essentially pre-accepting any invitation that opener may make, and since opener has yet to really describe much about his hand, it makes sense that you allow the cheap bids by opener at this point to be F1 rather than signoffs (since jumping wastes space and may lose a fit below 3N, we probably have values to make 2N/3m anyway, opener only wants to stop when he's got ~15-16).

 

I agree it makes less sense for responder to promise a rebid in the 1♣-1♥ double negative case. In this case, opener will have a wide range of hands with no game interest even opposite 3-4 (i.e. ~15-19 vs ~15-16). I still think it makes some sense to have 1N show the extra values in context, but not that it promises a rebid.

 

I think some of the structures you're proposing are going in a pretty different direction than those I was thinking about based on Woolsey. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish or why you're making the various changes, but maybe that's just a difference in our styles (I tend to want opener to describe and responder to ask, rather than v.versa, and also I'm not a huge fan of lots of pass/correct bids since they make constructive bidding hard).

[straube]

Thanks for replying. I'll try to show what I'm trying to do though we may not wind up agreeing on continuations for 1C-1H.

 

I think in broad terms, I'm more concerned than you are with finding a cheap place to land. I want to be ahead of those using 1C-1S (neg) and be able to play 2m and opener's longer major...just for starters.

 

I don't like passing 1C-1H with minimum (say 15-17) 5H/4m hands. I'm primarily doing so because I want not to have to use a a 2H rebid to show this hand. I don't like 1C-1H, 2H with 5H/4m with a hand that could be 15-17 opposite a 0-4 pt hand. Odds are we have less than half the deck and are not going to game. If partner has both minors and corrects (seems infrequent) then we're at the 3-level. I'd rather take my chances in 1H.

 

I don't want partner to super-accept 1C-1H, 2D (showing a major) with something like Kxxx xx xxxxx xx. I want three hearts and a trick. I'm comfortable lumping my 6H hands with my goodish 5H/4m hands because partner's super-accept is welcome in either case. In the first case, at worst I'm playing 3H in a 9-card fit and half the deck. At best, either I or partner insists on game. In the second case, if partner super-accepts, then with my goodish 5H/4m hand, I just bid game. If he doesn't superaccept, I decide whether to linger in 2H or show my minor (which really ought to be a 5m at that point).

 

I think if I want partner to accept game in hearts with Kxxx xx xxxxx xx, that I have a couple of ways of getting there. One is 1C-1H, 3H (do you have a trick? a heart or two?) and the other is 1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2H.

 

Your structure handles majors better than mine because opener gets a chance to bid again always whereas I only get that chance with 5S/4H.

 

Maybe instead of showing which 5S/5m I have, I should show which strength I have...

1C-1H, 2S=strong 5S/4m and 1C-1S, 1N/2C-2S=weak 5S/4m. Is that better?

 

I think your structure has a little more difficulty with something like Axx x KQJxx AJxx or Axx x AJx AQJxxxx where you just want to play 2m. I'd like to see if you've revised it since you're not promising a rebid after 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2m. For instance, does your 1C-1H, 1S-2D still ask for a major? I'm using 1C-1H, 1S as possibly just a minor and I think you're guaranteeing a 2-suiter...but not apparently 5m4m.

 

I've toyed with the idea of 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2D starting a GF. I don't like that my 1C-1H, 1S and my 1C-1H, 2C both ask responder's size. Seems redundant. But I don't like responder bidding 1N when NT is a likely spot and I do like that my 1S and 2C bids box opener's hand strengths.

 

You mentioned 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2S as a strong invite...in spades? I'm not familiar with this structure.