Who to blame?

[PhantomSac]

Imps w/w playing 2/1 GF two experts had the following auction:

 

1S 2H

2S 3C

3H 4D

4H p

 

AKJTx Kx xxxx Jx

 

Qx AQJTxx --- AT8xx

 

2S was a default bid and did not show 6 or even 5 very strong ones.

 

Whos fault is this?

[helene_t]

Did 4♦ specifically show shortness?

 

If so, maybe North has to move on.

 

If not, maybe South better bid 3♠ instead of 4♦. It would make it unclear which suit is trump but at least North would know that diamond values are wasted.

[Fluffy]

I think south is worth another move if anything, he might find himself on a finese slam but that's ok.

 

If you had the agreement to cue queens in partner's suit 3♠ is a better bid, but if not I think 4♦ is perfectly right, and after it south should now try either 5♦ or 4♠.

[hotShot]

I blame South.

[andy_h]

I think North is the one to blame. Assuming that 4D is the only bid to set hearts and a slam try, North needs to visualise South with at least x6x4 given that North has only shown a doubleton. I guess South can be pretty aggressive slam trying with a 64 shape with something like (lets assume worst case of doubleton diamond) x AQxxxx xx AQxx? That's a bit pushy, how about x AQxxxx xx AKxx? I think the 5 level should be safe most of the time to warrant a kick from North after 4D. As to what to bid? At first I thought 4S might be a suggestion of strain but after South has set hearts it should be a cuebid.

 

Interestingly enough, maybe on another auction South can bid 3S over 3H to "bid around the shortness" but I honestly don't know how the auction would go on from there.

 

Edit: Bidding around the shortness doesn't really make sense as that's what South would do with 2524 and no diamond stopper.

[hanp]

Not a bad auction imo.

 

North did not know that south had diamond shortness, 4D is the only bid that says "slam try in hearts". North's hand was of course perfect, but couldn't south just as easily have a 1624 16-count? North has a pretty prime 12-count but he doesn't know it is working.

 

I don't buy that south can do more, couldn't north just as easily have AJxxx Kx Kxxx Jx? (maybe I should add an awmesque: and I'm being generous!)

[kenrexford]

I think with 2-6-0-5, Responder could have planned ahead and been a little bit creative. After Opener's 3♥ call, 3♠ might have worked out better.

[inquiry]

Opener's action looks entirely reasonable to me so I guess I have to blame responder. Responder could have bid 3♠ over 3♥ or better still, could have bid 4♠ over 4♥, showing the Queen and a club control.

[hanp]

Opener's action looks entirely reasonable to me so I guess I have to blame responder. Responder could have bid 3♠ over 3♥ or better still, could have bid 4♠ over 4♥, showing the Queen and a club control.

Why does it follow that responder is to blame? Isn't it possible that an inferior contract is reached by completely reasonable calls?

 

And why does 4S show the queen, 3S is not a cue for hearts so why would responder bid any differently with the ace or king?

 

If you meant that 4S does not promise the ace or king but could be the queen, and that opener can see it must be the queen, very well if that's your agreement.

[hanp]

Also, if south bids 3S and north bids 3NT (wouldn't that be the most expected call), south has no way to make a slam try in hearts without going past 4H.

[andy_h]

Han, if South bids 3S (natural) and North bids 3NT, surely the only meaning for 4D is self setting hearts since 4C would be something like 2515?

[hanp]

Alright, if you say so. What if partner bids 4S, are you sure you will be able to land in hearts at the right level? Or do you not need to?

[marcD]

Guess it is a matter of cue bidding style but according to me Soth denied a club control and North accordingly signed off. Think South's Hand is strong enough to cue bid in Club first with 4C then with 5D over 4H.

[Jlall]

Cuebidding? Don't you need a trump suit first? In the real world when you aren't looking at six hearts and you're still looking for a trump fit you probably wouldn't think 3s was a cue lol. Partner can still be 62 in majors or 52 with a diamond stopper or spades in a 52 can be better than hearts in a 52 etc. Likewise with 55 I doubt you'd think 4c was a cue when 5 or 6c in a 53 could easily be better than a 52 heart fit. Thus 4d is just a bid that confirms hearts are trumps and stronger than 4h as Andy said. Even if you know what trumps should be you have to tell pard he can't read your mind

[billw55]

Also, if south bids 3S and north bids 3NT (wouldn't that be the most expected call), south has no way to make a slam try in hearts without going past 4H.

Why would you want to make a slam try if you are afraid of going past 4? :blink:

 

As to blame ... dunno. As opener, I think I would infer diamond shortness on this auction (perhaps Ax?) and ♥Kx is a nice surprise for partner. So I would try 4♠ over 4♦.

[shyams]

I think the presence of major suit J + T in the two hands makes all the difference. And I do not have any way of finding/showing these during the bidding.

 

If I reach slam with these hands, it is more likely a serendipitious bidding misunderstanding -- normally I would score up a +480

[pooltuna]

Imps w/w playing 2/1 GF two experts had the following auction:

 

1S 2H

2S 3C

3H 4D

4H p

 

AKJTx Kx xxxx Jx

 

Qx AQJTxx --- AT8xx

 

2S was a default bid and did not show 6 or even 5 very strong ones.

 

Whos fault is this?

I don't think I can really fault the bidding. The only thing that might have made a difference would be for the bottom hand (South?) to make a 3♠ call over the 2-card ♥ support shown by the ♠ opener.

[inquiry]

Han, I suggested "better still" was to bid 4♠ after biddig 4♦ and hearing 4♥. This sets ♥ as trumps of course (4♦ did that). As to why 4♠ shows the queen, I follow Fred's cue-bidding rules, where ACES and KINGS are bid up the line, and you can cue-bid a queen in partners suit as well. Since Opener is looking at AK of spades, he will know it is the queen (if he lacked both of those, he would not be certain what card it was).

 

Also, I noted opener bid his hand perfectly, so that if there is blame it has to be on responder, as at least he had some options not taken.

[cherdanno]

Han, I suggested "better still" was to bid 4♠ after biddig 4♦ and hearing 4♥. This sets ♥ as trumps of course (4♦ did that). As to why 4♠ shows the queen, I follow Fred's cue-bidding rules, where ACES and KINGS are bid up the line, and you can cue-bid a queen in partners suit as well. Since Opener is looking at AK of spades, he will know it is the queen (if he lacked both of those, he would not be certain what card it was).

 

Also, I noted opener bid his hand perfectly, so that if there is blame it has to be on responder, as at least he had some options not taken.

I think making two slam tries (4♦ and 4♠) is a bit too much with responder's hand. Note that he still would not promise diamond shortness so you will get some slam decisions wrong.

[ONEferBRID]

Eventho I'm a proponent of cuebidding the Q in partner's suit ( Sp ), what can poor Opener do next with his minimum hand and nothing to cuebid in the minors ?

I find it highly improbable to bid slam on this deal.

I too think it's a stretch for Responder to make 2 slam tries.

[hanp]

If responder bids 4S, opener has a slam force.

[jdonn]

Justin gave me only responder's hand yesterday and I bid 4♠ over 4♥. I really didn't think too long before deciding passing was wrong (although I thought a long time about exactly what to bid) so I may be a crazy overbidder. But that means I have to blame responder.

[hanp]

I just gave the hand to two friends. They bid 3S as responder and reached 7S.

[nigel_k]

No blame.

 

It's just unfortunate that responder has no way to convey their diamond shortage.

 

3♠ instead of 4♦ is tempting even though it's not a cue bid and partner won't know hearts are trumps until I bid them later. But if partner bids 4♠ we will be very poorly placed because he could have six spades and diamond wastage, e.g. A10xxxx Kx KJx xx, but could also have five good spades and no diamond wastage as on the actual hand.

[aguahombre]

3♠ instead of 4♦ is tempting even though it's not a cue bid and partner won't know hearts are trumps until I bid them later. But if partner bids 4♠ we will be very poorly placed because he could have six spades and diamond wastage, e.g. A10xxxx Kx KJx xx, but could also have five good spades and no diamond wastage as on the actual hand.

The example ATXXXX KX KJX XX probably would have bid 3NT over 3C.

 

With the actual hands, after:

 

1S 2H

2S 3C

3H 4D

 

North might choose 4S. The 4D call by responder might not have been clear to opener, but it does suggest that (1) hearts are trump and that (2) Responder is willing to go past 4H. (edit:) It already sounds to responder as if Opener does not have much in diamonds before the 4D bid.