0314 Question

[Adam1105]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skjhakqj74dkqcqj4&s=sq862hdj103cak8632]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

CC was Blackwood 0314

 

Bidding was:

North/South

2C/ 2D

2H/ 3C

4H/ 4NT

 

My partner was bidding for slam in clubs. How am I supposed to know that he is bidding for slam in clubs and not bidding for slam in hearts?

[mike777]

I would get to 6clubs....

 

down 2 aces.

 

 

against you...push....next deal...move on....

[dicklont]

4NT is RKCB for hearts, the 4♥ call has set trumps.

 

To begin with responder should bid 3♣ and not 2♦, he has a great a suit to show.

 

2♣ - 3♣

3♥ - 3♠

4♣ - 4NT

5♦ - 6♣ (let's play 1430 in the future partner)

 

Down one, but only when the defense cashes both aces immediately.

[nigel_k]

If no suit is agreed then RKCB is for the suit of the 4NT bidder's partner. Hearts, in this case.

 

Some other points:

 

1) Why should partner think clubs are a good place to play when he has only AKxxxx and you never supported them?

 

2) Partner should not use Blackwood with a void, and using it with clubs as trumps means he will be too high anyway if two key cards are missing.

 

3) I would not have opened 2♣ as I don't expect to make game very often if partner passes 1♥. But plenty of people would so this is not a big deal.

 

4) I would not rebid 4♥ with your hand. You could raise clubs or rebid 3♥ and bid 4♣ over partner's 3♠. Or even just bid 3NT at some point since it's matchpoints and he will never stop bidding if he has three of the four missing key cards.

 

5) If you do support clubs, partner should cue bid a control rather than ask for aces. With no controls to cue bid (as here) he should usually just bid 5♣. But in this case he has a very good hand with a fit opposite a two club opener so might just try 6♣ anyway.

[kenrexford]

Good idea to have agreed general principles here.

 

For example, one rule that I use is for the out-of-focus major to be RKCB for the minor and 4NT tends RKCB for the major. Using this rule, 4♠ would have been RKCB for clubs, erasing any problem.

 

BTW -- has anyone else noticed a tendency for 4NT to be RKCB for hearts more than for any other suit? Even with both majors, 4NT tends toward RKCB for hearts, often because 4♦ is available to flag spades. With hearts and a minor in focus, 4♠ is always available (almost always) for the minor RKCB, but less so when spade and a minor are in focus. This tendency seems to suggest a really vague GP that 4NT is RKCB for hearts when in doubt.

[hanp]

2D?? 4H?? 4NT??

 

learn the basics first, ignore rexford.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 responder should bid 3C instead of 2D

#2 assuming standard agreement 4NT is RKCB for hearts, the failure to

bid 3C after the 2C opening basically denies a sensible club suit,

of course KJxxx is still possible, but that is nearly the best possible

suit, so without a agreed fit - why should 4NT Ace asking for clubs.

#3 You should at least consider bidding 4C instead of 4H.

#4 Usually it does not matter to know, which suit p is planning as a trump

suit, if he bids 4NT than he basically takes over the reponsibility to

place the contract, and as long as it is clear which king to count as the

5th KC, there is no big problem, and the knowledge about the side king

is also quite often helpful.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And I strongly agree with hanp's remark.

[aguahombre]

Agree with all of Nigel's, except "most people would, so it is not a big deal". Most people would (open 2C), but it is a big deal and Nigel's decision not to looks wise.

 

Agree with Hanp's criticism of the auction thus far, but not with "ignore Rexford". Ken's comments are important about 4S vs 4NT.

[hanp]

Agree with Hanp's criticism of the auction thus far, but not with "ignore Rexford". Ken's comments are important about 4S vs 4NT.

No, not for someone who bids 2D and 4H. I assume Ken did not pay too much attention to what happened otherwise he wouldn't have talked about out of focus major and such things. Well, maybe he would have but he shouldn't.

[lilboyman]

If you haven't discussed this situation with partner, imho you should not be using this convention. Absent discussion I don't think I could conclude partner was bidding for slam in Clubs.

[jjbrr]

Stop playing RKC until you can bid the rest of the auction better. I've hear RKC is the most abused convention in bridge, and the given example supports that.

[helene_t]

Stop playing RKC until you can bid the rest of the auction better. I've hear RKC is the most abused convention in bridge, and the given example supports that.

hmmm.... depend what the alternative meaning of 4NT is. I would say

 

Quanti >> RKC >> Blacky

 

At least RKC forces you to make sure partner knows which suit is trump.

[jjbrr]

I admit I don't see anything wrong with playing "4NT is always blackwood except over NT auctions" until they get a better grasp of the rest of the auction.

[ArtK78]

3) I would not have opened 2♣ as I don't expect to make game very often if partner passes 1♥. But plenty of people would so this is not a big deal.

I agree with you that this is not a 2♣ opener. But by even mentioning this, you are going to hear from the 2♣ opening union. Things like "using strange evalutation methods like A=4, K=3 Q=2 J=1 results in 22 HCP" and other wonderful comments.

[dicklont]

3) I would not have opened 2♣ as I don't expect to make game very often if partner passes 1♥. But plenty of people would so this is not a big deal.

I agree with you that this is not a 2♣ opener. But by even mentioning this, you are going to hear from the 2♣ opening union. Things like "using strange evalutation methods like A=4, K=3 Q=2 J=1 results in 22 HCP" and other wonderful comments.

Not a 2♣ opener, ok, but what is the alternative?

2NT? Is also a misdescription.

1♥? But what will be you rebid?

[jdonn]

I agree that knowing which suit 4NT was keycard for is the least of the problems with this auction. Although that being said I think it's hard to avoid slam! You do have 32 hcp and any blackwood response might not be 5♣ so...

[P_Marlowe]

I agree that knowing which suit 4NT was keycard for is the least of the problems with this auction. Although that being said I think it's hard to avoid slam! You do have 32 hcp and any blackwood response might not be 5♣ so...

You may be able to stop in 5NT.

 

But this assumes, that both player have a firm understanding

about the basics + RKCB.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

I mean, sure. The auction probably should be different earlier. However, one cannot be assured that the early bids were wrrong unless stated to be such.

 

1. The partnership could be using a method where 3♣ was not available as an immediate positive response. Maybe 2♣-P-3♣ shows a weak hand with clubs, for example. That is not impossible.

 

2. 2♣-P-2♦-P-3♥ might show four heart and six clubs, such that 2♥ was "forced."

 

3. 2♥ might also have been semi-Kokish, in which case 3♣ (especially if an initial 3♣ would have been weak) could be a Kokish-rejecting positive response in clubs.

 

4. 4♥, as an unnecessary (?) jump, could easily be a "picture bid" or a "fit-jump," showing extra good hearts but with club support.

 

Thus, in theory, every bid up to this point could be 100% legitimate. IF every bid so far is legitimate, then there is a probnlem, that suggested by the OP. In THAT event, my analysis is spot-on.

 

:(

[jdonn]

I agree that knowing which suit 4NT was keycard for is the least of the problems with this auction. Although that being said I think it's hard to avoid slam! You do have 32 hcp and any blackwood response might not be 5♣ so...

You may be able to stop in 5NT.

 

But this assumes, that both player have a firm understanding

about the basics + RKCB.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

lol

[jdonn]

I mean, sure.  The auction probably should be different earlier.  However, one cannot be assured that the early bids were wrrong unless stated to be such.

 

1. The partnership could be using a method where 3♣ was not available as an immediate positive response.  Maybe 2♣-P-3♣ shows a weak hand with clubs, for example.  That is not impossible.

 

2. 2♣-P-2♦-P-3♥ might show four heart and six clubs, such that 2♥ was "forced." 

 

3. 2♥ might also have been semi-Kokish, in which case 3♣ (especially if an initial 3♣ would have been weak) could be a Kokish-rejecting positive response in clubs.

 

4. 4♥, as an unnecessary (?) jump, could easily be a "picture bid" or a "fit-jump," showing extra good hearts but with club support.

 

Thus, in theory, every bid up to this point could be 100% legitimate.  IF every bid so far is legitimate, then there is a probnlem, that suggested by the OP.  In THAT event, my analysis is spot-on.

 

:(

probably: lol

 

someone would state that every bid they have made is wrong then ask what suit 4nt was blackwood for: lol

 

1. lol

 

3. lol

 

4. lol

 

end: lol

[655321]

Agree with hanp (except for his apostrophe)

[peachy]

The 4H bid set the suit, so RKC is clearly for hearts. But there are some other bidding issues in this hand and those should be addressed first. Identifying the trump suit in this auction was NOT the problem.

[barmar]

If opener wanted to set ♥ as trumps, shouldn't he have jumped to 3♥ on round 2? And is AKQJxx really good enough to insist on trumps?

[peachy]

If opener wanted to set ♥ as trumps, shouldn't he have jumped to 3♥ on round 2? And is AKQJxx really good enough to insist on trumps?

his hand was not good enough for the 3H jump - which of course sets trumps. 3H is asking partner to cue. Opener cannot start slam search with that hand. But 2H rebid and next round jump to 4H also sets trumps, I don't see any reason why there could be alternate trumps considered. It was of course not the right thing to do by opener, but that was not under discussion, nor were some other calls in the auction, or hand evaluation. The question was, for RKC, what suit is trump? Answer to that IMO is clear: hearts.

[neilkaz]

This auction has lots to dislike to put it mildly.

 

This really is a flawed 22 count with those loose doubling honors so if you open 1♥ and PD can't respond, you may not have game. That being said, I'd open 2♣ with most partners that are on the same wavelength.

 

After 2♣, responder has a clear 3♣ positive response with a good 6 card suit and side cards as well. Note that many people (who don't play 2♥ response to 2♣ as a double negative) play the 3♣ rebid as a double negative.

 

Anyhow, after 3♣ assuming it wasn't double negative, opener shouldn't steal space with a 4♥ jump.

 

However, once opener has jumped to 4♥ that locks in that suit as trumps for RKCB as everyone has said.

 

Some bad luck to be off 2 aces when only missing 8 hcp.

 

Again I will stress to keep the bidding low with good hands when allready in a GF !!

With that in mind, if opener thought responder's 3♣ was a double negative he really cannot expect to make 4♥.