Partner Opened 2C IIRC

[jdonn]

I see I misunderestimated the chance of setting up that squeeze on the spade lead. Thanks for pointing out those extra chances, Frances.

 

No, it's not a crime to reach the slam. I just don't necessarily think it's a crime to miss it either.

Like has been said, switching opener's black suits makes it absolutely cold. So if you miss it because you realized that then you perhaps have done well. But if you would reach the same contract in either case and just randomly missed it then you have done something pretty bad.

[kenrexford]

Couple of thoughts:

 

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious. If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT. WTP?

 

2. With only the diamond King, raise 2♥ to 4♥.

 

3. The wrap-around cue would have worked wonders here. (4♦ as control of everything and slam interest, not enough to bypass 4♥)

[fred]

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious.  If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT.  WTP?

Agree that 2C is clear - this hand passes the "balanced yarborough test". But over 2H (double negative) I disagree that 2NT is WTP.

 

IMO if there is a bid that qualifies for a WTP, it is 3NT - a call that I think is clearly superior to both 2NT and 3H (and Pass!).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious.  If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT.  WTP?

Agree that 2C is clear - this hand passes the "balanced yarborough test". But over 2H (double negative) I disagree that 2NT is WTP.

 

IMO if there is a bid that qualifies for a WTP, it is 3NT - a call that I think is clearly superior to both 2NT and 3H (and Pass!).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Well, sure. I'd bid 3NT also. But, baby steps. If is having trouble even opening 2♣ with this hand, well at keast a 2NT option on rebid works better than a 1♥ opening.

[fred]

Well, sure.  I'd bid 3NT also.  But, baby steps.  If is having trouble even opening 2♣ with this hand, well at keast a 2NT option on rebid works better than a 1♥ opening.

If opening hands like this 2C is something new for you, I may be able to offer another useful tip:

 

If partner responds 2D, you should rebid 2H (not 2NT) even if you play Kokish.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

This sort of brings up a thought that has been in my brain recently.

 

In Puppet Stayman sequences, it seems to me that Responder bidding four of a minor to show 4-4 in the majors wastes space, especially in a Kokish situation, where both majors have already been bid. Seems better to bid 3♥, hoping to find a spade fit (with all of the benefits of the extra level of space) and then to insist on hearts if partner bids 3NT (with perhaps four-level calls now agreeing hearts and being cuebids).

 

In other words...

 

2♣-P-2♦-P-

2♥-P-2♠-P-

2NT-P-3♣-P-

3♦-P-3♥(spades)-P-

3♠(agrees, cue starts)

 

or

 

...3♥-P-

3NT-P-4♣/♦/♥ = hearts agreed, cues = slammish

 

Seems better to me.

 

However, there also is a reality that in several auctions Opener might have a 6-card heart suit. There seems to be space for checking on that possibility, with Opener, for example, bidding 3NT with six hearts (rather than with no 4-card major). In that event, the above would need to be tweaked. After ...3♣, Opener bids 3♦ with no 5+ major, but not promising a 4-card major. If Responder has one major, he shows it the normal way. With both majors, he bids 3♥. If Opener has spade support, he bids above 3NT (cues if desired), a slightly less-than-deal result (losing 3♠ and the sequences after 3♠). However, that allows 3♠ to show four hearts (not four spades), which allows cues as described above, and 3NT to deny a 4-card major (after which minors would be natural), which has a benefit in those no-major sequences (slightly).

 

Not sure whether this is important enough to merit this change, but maybe, especially in sequences like 2♣-P-2♥(neg)-P-2NT. Meaning, when a six-card heart suit is more likely.

[rbforster]

I eagerly await Ken's fully formed vision of puppet stayman that allows responder to find opener's 6 card majors and singletons, in addition to the more pedestrian features we're used to asking about.

[rogerclee]

I eagerly await Ken's fully formed vision of puppet stayman that allows responder to find opener's 6 card majors and singletons, in addition to the more pedestrian features we're used to asking about.

Why wait?

 

2N-3C

3H-3S

 

3C puppet stayman, 3H shows 5, 3S asks:

 

3N = diamond or other major shortness (4C asks)

4C = club shortness

4D = no shortness, 6 cards

4H = no shortness, 5 cards

 

4S thereafter asks for shape; after 4D, opener bids their doubleton (so exact 5332 is known) and over 4H they bid their 3 card suit (so exact 6322 is known).

[CSGibson]

If partner has a balanced yarborough he is likely to raise hearts at some point in the auction, and you may or may not get to 3NT.

 

My primary complaint is not so much whether you can make a game opposite nothing. It is how the low floor on 2♣ opening bids makes constructive bidding after a 2♣ opening bid so much more difficult than it should be to justify starting the bidding at the 2 level. You have deprived yourself of a level of bidding without sufficiently defining your hand. The problem is further exacerbated when the opponents interfere.

It's a 21 HCP hand with 4 Aces and a great 6 card major. What is your complaint, again?

[kenrexford]

Let's try Muppet!

 

Basic Muppet is Blah-Blah-Blah-3♣-?

 

3♦ = 2-4 spades, 2-3 hearts. 3H then asks for spade length (3S=3, 3N=2, 4-L=4, with new as cue and 4). 3S instead asks for heart length (3NT=2; 4-L=three with cues). Problem hand = 5♥/4♠ = transfer then 3♠.

 

3NT = 4-4 majors.

 

3S = 5S/2-3H.

 

3H = 4-5 hearts, 2-3 spades. 3S asks how many (3NT=4, 4-L for 5). Problem hand = 3♥/5♠ = transfer to spades and partner overrides with 2♠/5♥ to bid 3NT.

 

Can we get 6-card hearts into matrix?

 

Well, if Responder never bids 3♣ without at least two hearts, sure. Opener simply responds to 3♣ at the four-level with six hearts (cuebidding if desired).

 

This creates an obvious problem hand of a stiff heart with 3-4 spades. But, maybe that's a good bid for 2NT-P-3NT. With one or both minors and slam interest, Responder bids 3♠ as a hard relay to 3NT ("hard" because Opener cannot "superaccept" by bidding 4♣ or something). However, Responder also bids 3♠ as a relay to 3NT to play in 3NT (with the obvious downside of enabling a lead-directing double or slightly lead-inferential non-double).

 

3NT directly, then, would show game only with a stiff heart and 3-4 spades. This in and of itself has some merit (being able to show this hand, that is). Opener can then place the contract in spades, or pass with heart wasted, or 4♥ as a sort of "Bluhmer," or bid a minor naturally. If the spade contract is a Moysian occasionally, so? Probably right anyway. If the contract is 3NT with a 4-4 spade fit because Opener has wasted values in hearts, that's probably right anyway.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Might then want 2NT-P-4♣ or 2NT-P-4♠ as 3-4 spades, stiff heart, and slammish?

[mike777]

ya as a nonexpert I would have just bid 4h over 2h with just xxx.....xxx....KQxx...xxx

 

 

I assume 2d promised an ace or a k.

 

 

I assume 2c and then 2h often will be a 4 loser hand.

 

I grant I got a bit extra.

---------------

 

that means with OP....I showed more than this. I made two slam tries.

[straube]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

 

2D-establishes GF

3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached

3S-spade control, shows no extra

4H-does not deny a club or other control

 

I think the auction should have gone

 

2C-2D,

2H-3H,

3S-3N,

4C-(RKC)

 

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N. 3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one. After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid; 4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

 

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

[kenrexford]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

 

2D-establishes GF

3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached

3S-spade control, shows no extra

4H-does not deny a club or other control

 

I think the auction should have gone

 

2C-2D,

2H-3H,

3S-3N,

4C-(RKC)

 

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N. 3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one. After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid; 4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

 

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

[debrose]

By the way, this hand brought up a discussion with another partner of mine.

 

People who have thought about it probably realize that the best way to play:

 

2♣-2♦

2♠-3♠

4X

 

isn't acutally a 'cue' persay, but an actual suit, since we may not belong in spades (see many many many bridgeworld bidding problems).

 

Well.. what's the difference between that auction and this auction up through 3♠?  How do I show 4=5 in the majors and end up possibly playing in spades?  Do people generally agree to play this way in this auction as well and, if so, how do you resolve suit agreements after opener bids 3♠?  Furthermore, how do I even cuebid if that's the case?  Starting to think that you can't really do everything when it comes to hearts...

Kevin,

When I have the agreement to play 2♣-2♦, 2♠-3♠, new suit = 4+ card suit, yes we also play 2♣-2♦, 2♥-3♥, 3♠ shows a 4+-card suit. In both cases we use 3N as an artificial general slam try (for mad scientists, I suppose it would make more sense over 3♥ to use 3♠ as the general slam try, and 3N as the spade suit). Not sure I get your point about not being able to do everything when it comes to hearts - what can't you do there, that you can over spades?

[straube]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

 

2D-establishes GF

3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached

3S-spade control, shows no extra

4H-does not deny a club or other control

 

I think the auction should have gone

 

2C-2D,

2H-3H,

3S-3N,

4C-(RKC)

 

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

 

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

 

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. I had the same thought, though, that 4C would deny a diamond control and 4D would show both. It would certainly have been useful on this particular hand.

 

The only question I have is whether the locals are willing to show shortness before an ace or king. For example, could responder have Kxxx Qxx Kxxxx x ? And not willing to bid 4C before showing either king? On this hand, responder would appreciate hearing about the DA...even if the CA isn't held.

 

I like 4C denying a diamond control and 4D showing both.

[CSGibson]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

 

2D-establishes GF

3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached

3S-spade control, shows no extra

4H-does not deny a club or other control

 

I think the auction should have gone

 

2C-2D,

2H-3H,

3S-3N,

4C-(RKC)

 

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

 

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. This sequence does comes up rather frequently...as specific as it is..and without a better agreement for 3N, it's a useful sort of trick. Most of the time opener will be able to cue 4C, but when he can't, I think he's still obligated to bid 4D with a diamond control. I think slam is pretty hopeless at this point unless responder has a stiff club and declined to bid 4C with Kxxx Qxx Axxxx x or something like that. I think it would make more sense for 4D to show both a club and diamond control while 4C would show only a club control, but I'm not sure that's what people do here.

I'm from the same area as David. 3N is gernerally accepted as asking you to cue-bid your cheapest control. If you have AK of clubs, and Qx of diamonds, you might still bid 3N as an inquiry into the diamond situation, as an explicit order to tell about kings as well as aces.

[straube]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

 

2D-establishes GF

3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached

3S-spade control, shows no extra

4H-does not deny a club or other control

 

I think the auction should have gone

 

2C-2D,

2H-3H,

3S-3N,

4C-(RKC)

 

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

 

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. This sequence does comes up rather frequently...as specific as it is..and without a better agreement for 3N, it's a useful sort of trick. Most of the time opener will be able to cue 4C, but when he can't, I think he's still obligated to bid 4D with a diamond control. I think slam is pretty hopeless at this point unless responder has a stiff club and declined to bid 4C with Kxxx Qxx Axxxx x or something like that. I think it would make more sense for 4D to show both a club and diamond control while 4C would show only a club control, but I'm not sure that's what people do here.

I'm from the same area as David. 3N is gernerally accepted as asking you to cue-bid your cheapest control. If you have AK of clubs, and Qx of diamonds, you might still bid 3N as an inquiry into the diamond situation, as an explicit order to tell about kings as well as aces.

I think Chris is right about "bid the lowest control you have" being area standard. If he's right, then perhaps 4C by responder would likely limit the hand. Sounding like Serious 3N.