precision with no double negative?

[rbforster]

Many precision systems these days play a negative response to the strong club (1♣-1♦), and often a double negative after that (1♣-1♦(0-7)-1♥(20+)-1♠(0-4)). Other people play an immediate double negative, 1♣-1♠(0-4). All this seems like a lot of cheap bids being allocated to these very very weak 0-4 hands, which as we know are quite unlikely even opposite a big hand. Is this even necessary?

 

For example, people play negative responses after a strong 2♣ opener, i.e. either 2♥ immediate double negative, or 2♦ negative followed by cheaper minor 2nd negative. A good pair I know switched years ago to just playing 2♦ waiting, with no second negative, and haven't worried about it since then. Apparently this works fine for them.

 

Getting back to precision, it seems like the main place where you would want to get range information from responder is so that opener can play the right number of NT when he has various common big balanced hands. This isn't really so much of a problem though, since between the sequences 1♣-1♦-(1N/2N), or 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-(1N/2N), and even a 2N opener, you can split up the balanced ranges pretty easily.

 

I can imagine a few nice features if you do this, like:

 

- direct 1♦ GF and immediate descriptive bids to show your shape early when weak (0-7)

- maybe major-oriented transfers by weak hands, where opener's acceptance would be tolerance and NF opposite the double negative

- once opener has limited his hand and initiated relays, allow very weak hands to relay and pass in a long suit

 

I don't have a fully formed system based around this idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there for comments.

[helene_t]

With Agusaris, responder's 2nd bid of 1♠ is forcing. If responder bids a suit at the 2-level it's very weak and shows a 6-card suit. 1♠ followed by a bid in a suit is stronger (as responder might now be forced to bid at the 3-level).

 

Responder might pass opener's third bid but he will often raise, bid notrumps.

[rd6789]

We play a standard 1♦ (0-7) response but then 1♥ by opener is kokish forcing 1♠

 

Playing an opening 1NT as 14-16 then you have

 

1♣ 1♦ 1NT =17-18

1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 1NT = 19-20

1♣ 1♦ 2NT =21-22

1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2NT = 23-24

etc

 

You get to play you favourite reponses over NT for all balanced hands in the range 14-20

[straube]

When I open a strong club, I always hope to get a GF as early as possible so that I have extra bidding space to find the best contract. When I have to jump to 2N to show extra values, it's always disappointing; I think of such jumps as a stop gap.

 

I need to have a negative and a double negative so that I can start boxing responder's hand and knowing whether we're in a part score or game forcing auction.

[PrecisionL]

The double negative works very nicely in allowing opener to play 1NT with 19-20 hcp balanced hands.

[rogerclee]

All this seems like a lot of cheap bids being allocated to these very very weak 0-4 hands, which as we know are quite unlikely even opposite a big hand.

If partner's range is 20+, then on average he has about..22 points?

Which means on average, everyone else has around 18 points.

Which means on average, when we have limited our hand to 0-7, we have around..5 points? (depending on how many opponents have passed)

 

So why is a bid to show 0-4 that weird after 1H art and very strong? Seems like we should be in that range pretty often.

[jjbrr]

I'm happy with no second negative fwiw.

[PhantomSac]

It's different than over 2C, because a 2C opener is basically a GFing hand. If you have shown 20+, then 0-4 hands are useful to show so that you can know as soon as possible if you're in a GF or not.

 

If you establish a GF at any point, you are still just starting to bid at the 2 level (or 1N), so you have ample amount of room to do whatever you want. I mean such low level GFes are what dreams are made of. However, if you don't have a game, it helps to know that early so you can put on the breaks at a reasonable partscore at the 2 level.

 

Basically, you don't really need the extra step that much if you are going to establish a GF, but you desperately need the extra room if you cannot create a GF and are going to have to stop in a partial.

 

A lot of bidding is predicated on this concept, either establish a GF or make a cheap bid, for instance after 1S p, you can think of 1N as a glorified negative.

 

Partscore bidding is already going to be very tough in a system like this, I don't think alotting MORE room for game/slams and even less to stop low in partials is a great idea.

 

And you are going to lose on game/slam bidding a lot if NONE of your bids establish a game force and everything is still 0+, because you will have to make a bid later to establish a force or show values, rather than just bidding naturally or relaying within your low level GF.

[Lobowolf]

Many precision systems these days play a negative response to the strong club (1♣-1♦), and often a double negative after that (1♣-1♦(0-7)-1♥(20+)-1♠(0-4)). Other people play an immediate double negative, 1♣-1♠(0-4). All this seems like a lot of cheap bids being allocated to these very very weak 0-4 hands, which as we know are quite unlikely even opposite a big hand. Is this even necessary?

 

For example, people play negative responses after a strong 2♣ opener, i.e. either 2♥ immediate double negative, or 2♦ negative followed by cheaper minor 2nd negative. A good pair I know switched years ago to just playing 2♦ waiting, with no second negative, and haven't worried about it since then. Apparently this works fine for them.

 

Getting back to precision, it seems like the main place where you would want to get range information from responder is so that opener can play the right number of NT when he has various common big balanced hands. This isn't really so much of a problem though, since between the sequences 1♣-1♦-(1N/2N), or 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-(1N/2N), and even a 2N opener, you can split up the balanced ranges pretty easily.

 

I can imagine a few nice features if you do this, like:

 

- direct 1♦ GF and immediate descriptive bids to show your shape early when weak (0-7)

- maybe major-oriented transfers by weak hands, where opener's acceptance would be tolerance and NF opposite the double negative

- once opener has limited his hand and initiated relays, allow very weak hands to relay and pass in a long suit

 

I don't have a fully formed system based around this idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there for comments.

If you play the 1♥ relay (see, e.g. rd6789's post) then you don't need a "double negative." e.g.:

 

1♣*-1♦ **

1♥*** - 1♠****

1NT*****

 

* 16+

** 0-7

*** Either natural, or extras (19+) & balanced

**** Almost forced; responder breaks relay with a few distributional hands, but if balanced, can be quite strong

***** 19-20 balanced

 

Responder passes now with the 0-4 hand, because there's no reason to bid with it over a balanced 19-20, but with a good hand, responder still bids 1♠ at his second turn, and makes whatever bid is appropriate over opener's third bid.

[akhare]

Interesting question, but couple of things to consider:

 

1) 2♣ usually starts at 22+ and 1♣ is usually (15)16+. In the absence of an immediate double negative, even the 3 level might be too high with the latter range

 

2) Assuming 1♦ as GF, does the ability to show an extra SP shape with 1♠ offset the loss resulting from the inability to show the DN immediately?

[straube]

Seems like you have to find out the DN sometime. I'd rather find out fairly soon.