responding to jump shift

[jdonn]

This thread has become wow

[awm]

Well the choice of methods has contributed to the problem here. Playing standard american, there is not so much need for a "good raise of hearts" because the 1NT response is much more limited. Playing a method like gazzilli solves this problem completely. Some 2/1 players use an artificial 3♣ jump shift where one of the possibilities is a 5+/4 majors hand (so the 3♥ jump shows 5/5) -- this solves a lot of problems in this sequence too. Evidently the question assumes none of the above.

 

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement. Perhaps a good general rule is "game before slam" and there are many hands where sorting out which game is best can be quite awkward here. It's true that 4m cuebid helps you on some slam auctions, but you will be guessing a lot more often at the game level, and you may even miss some slams where there is a 6-3 fit in responder's hidden minor.

[jdonn]

I like a version of the 3♣ multi jump shift. It would be very reasonable in that case to play 4m is a cuebid if partner showed 5 hearts but natural if partner showed just 4 hearts (even moreso because in the case where he showed just 4 hearts responder had a chance to bid 3♥ naturally over 3♣).

[straube]

Rodney26,

I said the problem was ridiculous, but I never thought or intended to say that you were ridiculous. I play 2/1 far more frequently than Precision for the reasons you stated and I've faced this same situation more than I would like. I do play a lot of relays to get myself out of the jams that natural bidding creates and I thought that bids similar to Ingbermann and Wolff sign off (relays) were ok to discuss on this forum. I meant my suggestion and criticism in a constructive way and I'm sorry if this didn't come across.

 

ONEferBrid,

I don't care for your relay sheme because RKC for hearts is not as important as some other features.

 

jdonn,

What do you mean exactly? It feels like you are calling me or us stupid and I hope that's not what you mean.

[straube]

Well the choice of methods has contributed to the problem here. Playing standard american, there is not so much need for a "good raise of hearts" because the 1NT response is much more limited. Playing a method like gazzilli solves this problem completely. Some 2/1 players use an artificial 3♣ jump shift where one of the possibilities is a 5+/4 majors hand (so the 3♥ jump shows 5/5) -- this solves a lot of problems in this sequence too. Evidently the question assumes none of the above.

 

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement. Perhaps a good general rule is "game before slam" and there are many hands where sorting out which game is best can be quite awkward here. It's true that 4m cuebid helps you on some slam auctions, but you will be guessing a lot more often at the game level, and you may even miss some slams where there is a 6-3 fit in responder's hidden minor.

How does Gazzilli work? I've used 1S-1N, 2N as an artificial GF

I've also wondered whether 1S-1N, 3D ought to show hearts...perhaps as GI+

[jdonn]

I didn't call you anything, and I didn't call anyone stupid. All you are being is sensitive and paranoid :)

[Apollo81]

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement.

Another general "rule" that may support this is that each person should get at least one chance to bid his long suit, although the crowd will say that chance is 5♣.

[Fluffy]

Its becoming very popular that games before sams thing, but it doesn't have to be always true.

 

I play that 3M-4m is always cuebid, with some exceptions, so far I don't recall missing the natural call ever.

 

If your meta-rules tell you this is natural its ok, but I am sure that playing it as cuebid has a much higher appearence frequency, and I'd even say that it is also more useful when it happens. How often do you impose a minor over partner's major 2 suiter?

 

The way I was taught 2/1 jump swifts promise a 5-5 hand (condensing semi-bal hands on 2NT), I have never thought about why, but I Am happy with it.

[straube]

Its becoming very popular that games before sams thing, but it doesn't have to be always true.

 

I play that 3M-4m is always cuebid, with some exceptions, so far I don't recall missing the natural call ever.

 

If your meta-rules tell you this is natural its ok, but I am sure that playing it as cuebid has a much higher appearence frequency, and I'd even say that it is also more useful when it happens. How often do you impose a minor over partner's major 2 suiter?

 

The way I was taught 2/1 jump swifts promise a 5-5 hand (condensing semi-bal hands on 2NT), I have never thought about why, but I Am happy with it.

I like that, as long as 2N is GF. What do you do with a 6/4?

[awm]

For what it's worth, over 10000 hands I have responder holding 4♥ about 2373 times, 5+♥ 1267 times, 6m without four hearts 2876 times. Of course, some of the 6m hands can perhaps be handled by bidding 3♠ on doubleton, or might be suitable for guessing 3NT. Roughly two-thirds of the four heart hands have 6-9 hcp and are probably suited to a direct raise to 4♥. Since this sim doesn't give any real handle on the gains/losses of various approaches I don't think it means much, but it does indicate that the frequencies are in the same ballpark.

 

Gazzilli is a method whereby opener's 2♣ rebid after 1M-1NT or 1♥-1♠ is forcing one round and shows either a natural club suit or any strong 1M opening (typically 17+ hcp is the cutoff but I've seen people use different ranges). Responder normally bids 2♦ over this with points for game opposite the strong option, with other non-jump continuations showing a weak hand. For the most part gazzilli is a big win when opener has the 17+ hand (you gain a lot of space) and a small loss when opener has the major/club two-suiter (you can't play in 2♣ any more and some "invitational club raise" auctions can become more awkward). There are sketchy details of this convention available online; the most complete treatment I've seen is in the Ambra notes (available via Dan Neill's page). Other consequences of Gazzilli include 1M-1X-2N being artificial and forcing (typically showing a strong 6/4) and jumps to the three-level in a new suit being non-forcing (typically 5/5 hands with mild extras).

[mike777]

For what it's worth, over 10000 hands I have responder holding 4♥ about 2373 times, 5+♥ 1267 times, 6m without four hearts 2876 times. Of course, some of the 6m hands can perhaps be handled by bidding 3♠ on doubleton, or might be suitable for guessing 3NT. Roughly two-thirds of the four heart hands have 6-9 hcp and are probably suited to a direct raise to 4♥. Since this sim doesn't give any real handle on the gains/losses of various approaches I don't think it means much, but it does indicate that the frequencies are in the same ballpark.

 

Gazzilli is a method whereby opener's 2♣ rebid after 1M-1NT or 1♥-1♠ is forcing one round and shows either a natural club suit or any strong 1M opening (typically 17+ hcp is the cutoff but I've seen people use different ranges). Responder normally bids 2♦ over this with points for game opposite the strong option, with other non-jump continuations showing a weak hand. For the most part gazzilli is a big win when opener has the 17+ hand (you gain a lot of space) and a small loss when opener has the major/club two-suiter (you can't play in 2♣ any more and some "invitational club raise" auctions can become more awkward). There are sketchy details of this convention available online; the most complete treatment I've seen is in the Ambra notes (available via Dan Neill's page). Other consequences of Gazzilli include 1M-1X-2N being artificial and forcing (typically showing a strong 6/4) and jumps to the three-level in a new suit being non-forcing (typically 5/5 hands with mild extras).

my partners never seem to have 17+ so I would think the negatives out way the positive.

 

 

Pard cannot have a balanced 17+ for me.

 

BART 1s=1nt=2c...helps on some of the unbalancedhands

1h=1nt=2c=? impossible 2s helps on some of these deals.

 

 

with all of that said alot of my friends do seem to love Gaz.

[Finch]

I've also wondered whether 1S-1N, 3D ought to show hearts...perhaps as GI+

You've wondered? I've been playing for years that 1S - 1NT - 3C is game forcing with diamonds, 3D is game forcing with hearts, 3H is 5-5 invitational, 1S - 1NT - 3S is forcing (1S - 1NT - 2C is artificial, and includes black two-suiters). That solves all these problems. But perhaps is also not relevant to this thread.

 

FWIW I prefer 4C as a heart slam try over 3H rather than as natural because it's a much more likely hand type and more useful when it comes up. (5C is natural.)

[Fluffy]

Adam I'd take a new suit at the 4 level opposide a 2 suiter to be 7 card with good honnors rather than any 6 carder. My understanding of such a bid is: ok you have 2 suits, but we are gonna play this, rather than... ok you have 2 suits, but what if we play this?

 

I might be biased because I always play MPs and play 3NT hoping for some luck.