responding to jump shift

[Rodney26]

2/1, all jump shifts are weak.

 

1♠-1NT (forcing)

3♥-4♣

 

What would most advanced partnerships play 4♣ as?

 

1. Natural & forcing (x xx Axx KQTxxxx)?

2. Cuebid in support of hearts (x Qxxx Kxx AQxxx)?

3. Assumed to be 2 unless the suit is rebid at the five level, then 1?

4. Natural and nonforcing?

 

Feel free to weigh in on 5♣ as well over 3♥, and whether that is natural or a heart splinter(Exclusion if applicable).

[Stephen Tu]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=36674&hl=

 

 

Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

[jdonn]

Cuebid, but with an unknown partner or a reason to doubt the agreement I hope people wouldn't torture each other by cuebidding the suit twice...

 

Since 3♥ is forcing to game, and 4♣ is not game, you can get rid of your choice 4.

[Rodney26]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=36674&hl=

 

 

Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

Thanks for the link -- obviously didn't notice that before.

[the hog]

Cue bid agreeing H.

[ONEferBRID]

I don't think there was a concensus in the other thread for 4♣ .

 

One expert I know plays it as:

4C = natural, non-forcing... long Clubs .. BAD hand

( not wanting to play in 3NT, Sp or Hts ):

 

"No fit for one of Opener's suits, you don't want to go

above 3NT unless you have a weak, long suit and the only way to get

tricks out of it is if it were trumps ".

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Others I know play 4♣ as an advance cue for Opener's 2nd suit, ♥ .

[straube]

natural and forcing. We're only tempted to want this for a cue bid because unlike 1S-1N, 3D-4D, the raise to 4H is not forcing.

 

However, we can't get around that it's bad for one partner to be able to show a two-suited hand while the other can't show a single-suited hand...especially when he can have invitational strength.

[PhantomSac]

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=36674&hl=

 

 

Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

Really? STEPHEN TU?!?!

[gnasher]

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

[gwnn]

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

the hand that wanted to bid 3C intermediate?

 

x

xx

Kxx

AQxxxxx

 

?

[Jlall]

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

the hand that wanted to bid 3C intermediate?

 

x

xx

Kxx

AQxxxxx

 

?

Going past 3N seems dangerous with this hand, though you may have a club slam, you also may have a misfit that can make 3N on power.

 

Having no way to raise hearts strongly is really absurd though, for every hand you have that you want to bid 4 of a minor (I don't deny that they exist), you have 20 that wants to show a slam positive hand for hearts without having to just bid 5H.

[gwnn]

I agree with all that, I just wanted to say that there is a distinct class of hands that, though being in a minority, would wish to bid 4m naturally.

[Fluffy]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

[straube]

If someone plays 1S-1N, 3H-4C as agreeing hearts, then that's fine but it's a conventional treatment and not a natural treatment.

 

That auction is obviously quite a bit different than 1N-2H, 2S-3H, 4C where opener can't want to show clubs.

 

As long as the partnership is interested in a conventional treatment for this specific sequence (because other similar sequences such as 1S-1N, 3D-4D are not problematic), then one might look at using a 3S rebid as a relay...probably a weak relay.

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S (weak), 3N (no extra distribution)-

.....4m-weak, bailout

.....4M-weak, fit

 

but

1S-1N, 3H-3N shows a good hand with no fit

1S-1N, 3H-4m shows a good hand with a good suit

1S-1N, 4M-shows a good hand with a fit

 

That's off the cuff, but that 3S bid is underutilized imo.

[gwnn]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

yes, pretty much :(

[jdonn]

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

[straube]

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

That's a bad trade, but I think that using it as a relay has merit.

 

How about...

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 3N-

.....4C-two-fit in spades

..........4H-5/5

.....4D-medium hand for hearts

.....4H-weak hand for hearts

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S,

.....4C-7/4

.....4D-6/5

.....4H-5/5 stronger

.....

 

1S-1N, 3H-

.....3N-good hand, no fit

.....4m-good hand, minor

.....4M-good hand, major

[Rodney26]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes. :)

 

I was responder and had:

 

♠

♥T9x

♦KQT9xx

♣Q7xx

 

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

 

♠AKJ8xx

♥AKQ6x

♦x

♣x

 

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

 

♠x

♥J9xx

♦Axxx

♣xxxx

 

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

 

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

[straube]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes. :)

 

I was responder and had:

 

♠

♥T9x

♦KQT9xx

♣Q7xx

 

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

 

♠AKJ8xx

♥AKQ6x

♦x

♣x

 

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

 

♠x

♥J9xx

♦Axxx

♣xxxx

 

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

 

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

There's that rule about never raising partner's second suit with fewer than four.

 

But if you had a weak relay (3S) available...

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 4D (6/5)-4H now partner knows you're weak at least.

[ONEferBRID]

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

That's a bad trade, but I think that using it as a relay has merit.

 

How about...

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 3N-

.....4C-two-fit in spades

..........4H-5/5

.....4D-medium hand for hearts

.....4H-weak hand for hearts

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S,

.....4C-7/4

.....4D-6/5

.....4H-5/5 stronger

.....

 

1S-1N, 3H-

.....3N-good hand, no fit

.....4m-good hand, minor

.....4M-good hand, major

This may be the kiss of death... but I like it !

[Rodney26]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes. :P

 

I was responder and had:

 

♠

♥T9x

♦KQT9xx

♣Q7xx

 

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

 

♠AKJ8xx

♥AKQ6x

♦x

♣x

 

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

 

♠x

♥J9xx

♦Axxx

♣xxxx

 

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

 

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

There's that rule about never raising partner's second suit with fewer than four.

 

But if you had a weak relay (3S) available...

 

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 4D (6/5)-4H now partner knows you're weak at least.

Sure, I'd love to have 4 ♥ for my bid, but what else? I'll survive 3NT today only because partner is going to pull; it's not going to go so well on the days he leaves me there. If he plays in a Moysian, the hand certainly seems suitable.

 

I don't know why you're posting a relay solution to a SAYC, 2/1 problem in the first place. The goal is to learn what folks play 4m as in the above framework.

[PhantomSac]

Straube you really don't see why being forced to bid 3S then 4C, going beyond 3N, in order to show a "2 fit" in spades is not good? Ideally you can show a "2 fit" in spades below 3N, so that you can judge whether to play 3N or 4S!

[straube]

Sure, I'd love to have 4Hs for my bid, but what else? I'll survive 3NT today only because partner is going to pull; it's not going to go so well on the days he leaves me there. If he plays in a Moysian, the hand certainly seems suitable.

 

I don't know why you're posting a relay solution to a SAYC, 2/1 problem in the first place. The goal is to learn what folks play 4m as in the above framework.

 

I think partner can be expected to pull 3N quite frequently. If he doesn't, you're likely to be in as good a spot in 3N as in your Moysian. Afraid of clubs? Clubs are just as dangerous in the Moysian as in 3N because the wrong hand will be tapped. Also you're up a level higher. Moysian's work best when dummy has shortness opposite a weak fragment so that dummy can control that suit and provide ruffs; that isn't the situation here.

 

Sorry if you weren't interested in a relay solution. I thought the door to artificiality had been opened after many posters used 1S-1N, 3H-4m conventionally (my vote was actually natural!). I was suggesting that if we wanted an artificial solution, then why not use a relay? The basic idea of using a 1-step as a weakness/waiting bid comes up over and over again in bridge. I know of people who play 1D-1H, 3C-3D as a waiting bid. If they were jazzed about diamonds, they'd bid 4D or something. 3D just gives opener more room to describe his hand while not sounding overly positive about anything. Others, too use 1C-1S, 2D-2H as a weakness relay; they hope partner can show 3-card support for spades and even play 2S!

 

 

Straube you really don't see why being forced to bid 3S then 4C, going beyond 3N, in order to show a "2 fit" in spades is not good? Ideally you can show a "2 fit" in spades below 3N, so that you can judge whether to play 3N or 4S!

 

Sure, I see the downside. Of course, the whole problem is ridiculous. We're at 3H and have no idea whether partner is 5/4 or 5/5 or 6/4. We wouldn't be in this mess if we were playing a strong club system (etc.) and left enough room to sort this out. On the whole, I like a weak relay here as the best chance of sorting things out.

 

This may be the kiss of death... but I like it !

 

No. I appreciate that someone likes it!

[ONEferBRID]

Straube has shown in interesting way for Opener to show ( among other things ) if he is 7/5, 6/5 or 5/5 via better utilization of Responder's 3S! rebid as a relay.

 

I was able to modify this concept to my own liking of Responder's RKC "showing" as acceptance of Hts with 4+ cards ( Josh will hate it ).

I changed the meanings of Responder's 3rd bid in his sequence:

1S-1N, 3H-3S!, 3N- ?? (where 3S! essentially denies 4 cards Hts).

[ I won't go into those replies now, but among other things, it allows for Responder to show a long minor, not solid, no outside entries... ie. a suit that can only take tricks as trump ].

 

Anyway, it frees up the following:

 

1S-1N, 3H- ??

....... 3NT = stop(s) in both minors; dislike both Majors

.......RKC-showing for Hts w/ 4+ cards:

................4C! = 0 or 3

................4D! = 1 ( 4 impossible )

................4H! = 2 - hQ

................4S! = 2 + hQ

 

So let's take as an example:

Opener     Responder

♠AKJ8xx.......x

♥AKQ6x........T 9 x x

♦x................K Q T 9 x

♣x................Q x x

 

1S - 1NT!

3H - 4C! ( zero key cards )

4H = to play ... missing 2 Aces

 

whereas:

Responder with

♠x

♥J9xx

♦Axxx

♣xxxx

 

1S - 1NT!

3H - 4D! ( 1 key card )

6H

 

I couldn't have managed this without Straube's 3S! relay idea.

[Rodney26]

I think partner can be expected to pull 3N quite frequently.  If he doesn't, you're likely to be in as good a spot in 3N as in your Moysian.  Afraid of clubs?  Clubs are just as dangerous in the Moysian as in 3N because the wrong hand will be tapped.  Also you're up a level higher.  Moysian's work best when dummy has shortness opposite a weak fragment so that dummy can control that suit and provide ruffs; that isn't the situation here.

 

3NT has far more problems than the likely run of the clubs (which is a fairly obvious problem). Entries to this hand don’t seem particularly likely in NT. You’d be fortunate to get one and a lot of days you’ll get none. You’re right that a club tap might be effective, but it won’t always be. Maybe partner has stiff ace or king; maybe partner can counter the tap by pitching some of dummy’s clubs on high spades. Then of course there are the times when partner does have more than four hearts. All and all, I think 4♥ is fairly clear.

 

Sure, I see the downside.  Of course, the whole problem is ridiculous.  We're at 3H and have no idea whether partner is 5/4 or 5/5 or 6/4.  We wouldn't be in this mess if we were playing a strong club system (etc.) and left enough room to sort this out. 

 

Again, we’re in the 2/1 thread and you’re saying a problem is ridiculous because we’re not playing a strong club. :) If (4m) comes back at me after I’ve opened the 6-5-1-1 hand, I’d be a lot better placed having opened 1♠. You’re probably right that a Precision auction will be preferable if the opponents are quiet. Playing 2/1, I think I’d open 2♣ with this hand playing against known meek opponents for similar reasons (I’m guessing partner wouldn’t have moved after 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♦-3♥-4♥).

 

Just please keep in mind that strong club and relay systems are not for everyone. If you play in one established partnership at least once a week and actively discuss agreements and situational bridge, I’d absolutely recommend working on a souped up Precision model. However, if you play with a lot of different people in the US, working off BWS seems most prudent so you have a lot of default agreements in place.