Rate a slam #1

[inquiry]

Since Justin is within one post of catching me for most post, I thought I had better post some stuff... :rolleyes:

 

I am going to present a series of hands (for now these will all be slams) as play problem. I know with my history, most of you will believe they will all be squeezes or endplayish type hands, but they will not all be such hands. Others might be safety play or dummy reversal or set up long suit. Ideally all of them will have a clear winning line. However, no doubt a few might be cooked and having those pointed out would be helpful too. In addition to posting the hands, each hand will have a poll attached. The purpose of the poll is to try to establish the level of difficultly the forum members consider each hand. On a few earlier hands I posted with such polls there was often some wide range of opinion on the level of play needed to find the winning line, however, if we have a large enough cross-section of hands and votes, it might be possible to draw some conclusions about what forum members think is a beginner hand, a intermediate hand, etc.

 

I have already posted some such hands recently in the interesting hand section. One was a difficult entry-shifting squeeze I would have rated a 4.5 or 5, the other was a routine positional simple squeeze (that could be played as more complex vulnerable stopper squeeze against either opponent) that I would have rated a 2.5 (high intermediate/low advanced).

 

I will try to mix up relatively easy hands with some more complex hands as the month goes along. I will admit some of hands posted in this series of hands would better belong in the beginner/intermediate forum, but placing them there would tip off my feelings of how they should be rated.

 

Here goes, the first problem hand follows below, this one I think will not be all that challenging....

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sqj5hakj3da85caq2&s=sa76hq2dkqjtc8754]133|200|Scoring: IMP

ACBL Tournament, EW were playing SAYC and 2♠ was a "weak two".

 

2♠-P-P-Dbl

P-3NT-P-6NT

all pass

 

T1. ST-SQ-SK-?[/hv]

[pooltuna]

I always manage to get RHO holding [hv=s=sk98xxxhxxxdxxxcx]133|100|unless I finesse ♣ then he holds the K[/hv]

but it is hard to imagine not playing for the drop :rolleyes:

[Jlall]

To me beginner is like, take a finesse or whatever, so I doubt any hands you post will be below a 2. I guess this one is a 2.5

[karlson]

I think given the types of hands Ben will probably be posting here (I haven't looked at the others), it's probably a 1.5 or a 2. In some more global context of bridge hands played everywhere, it's probably a 3.5 or something.

[Hanoi5]

I'd play opener to have ♣K. I'd cash spades, hearts and diamonds (tossing clubs from my hand) and either endplay opener in spades or drop the ♣K. I think it's a fairly easy problem for someone having an idea about squeezes, endplays and such. There is always the possibility of opener not having the ♣K, in which case a simple finesse would suffice but you'll have to know that person's style beforehand and it would have to be part of the problem.

[nigel_k]

I voted 3.0. It may depend on their preempting style to some extent but it looks right to play opener for ♣K almost always.

 

Also, I doubt you are going to keep ahead of Justin by taking the time to write posts like this when he can just respond with a one liner.

[inquiry]

I voted 3.0. It may depend on their preempting style to some extent but it looks right to play opener for ♣K almost always.

 

Also, I doubt you are going to keep ahead of Justin by taking the time to write posts like this when he can just respond with a one liner.

I will not be able to stay ahead of justin in post for long. I use to have a 5000 post lead, so the trend is clear, he will become the leader soon enough. Also, a lot of my post are in a forum here most can't read (the infamous yellow forum), so he has more post that members can see than me already, by a large amount.........

 

[hv=n=sqj5hakj3da85caq2&w=stht7654d9764ct96&e=sk98432h98d32ckj3&s=sa76hq2dkqjtc8754]399|300|I gave the auction as ACBL because I know at one time, a long time ago, they had a "five-and-five" rule on weak twos, about at least a five card suit and either at least 5 hcp or a range of no more than 5 hcp (I can't remember which), and that rule seems to be gone now anyway.[/hv]

 

[hv=n=sqj5hakj3da85caq2&w=stht7654d9764ct96&e=sk98432h98d32ckj3&s=sa76hq2dkqjtc8754]399|300|I gave the auction as ACBL because I know at one time, a long time ago, they had a "five-and-five" rule on weak twos, about at least a five card suit and either at least 5 hcp or a range of no more than 5 hcp (I can't remember which), and that rule seems to be gone now anyway.[/hv]

 

REMEMBER TO VOTE IN THE POLL........

[Jlall]

Umm I will never pass inquiry in posts, hence my undertitle (inquiry-1). That's why I post on PhantomSac now when I am 1 post less than inquiry.

 

Josh will pass him soon though.

[Mbodell]

Hmm, I think the squeeze line I was thinking of works too, I think, if you assume opener has the ♣K and 5+ ♠.

 

Win ♠A, duck ♣. Now cash the ♠J, run 4♥ (pitching 2 ♣) and 4♦ (pitching the 5♠). Now you are in the South hand with the ♠7 and ♣8 and the N hand has the AQ of clubs. If the ♠7 is good, cash it. If not and you have a count on the East hand and know he has no more clubs, finesse. If not (which will happen on the layout you give assuming he keeps the spades protected) then drop the stiff ♣K.

 

As an aside, I found it pretty tricky at first to figure out who opened what because the dealer was North but the opening bid was 2♠ and we were N/S.

[Jlall]

Hmm, I think the squeeze line I was thinking of works too, I think, if you assume opener has the ♣K and 5+ ♠.

 

Win ♠A, duck ♣. Now cash the ♠J, run 4♥ (pitching 2 ♣) and 4♦ (pitching the 5♠). Now you are in the South hand with the ♠7 and ♣8 and the N hand has the AQ of clubs. If the ♠7 is good, cash it. If not and you have a count on the East hand and know he has no more clubs, finesse. If not (which will happen on the layout you give assuming he keeps the spades protected) then drop the stiff ♣K.

 

As an aside, I found it pretty tricky at first to figure out who opened what because the dealer was North but the opening bid was 2♠ and we were N/S.

What if your LHO wins the club and plays another club through dummy?

[Mbodell]

What if your LHO wins the club and plays another club through dummy?

Unlucky. Yes, that would be the problem with that line.

[Jlall]

What if your LHO wins the club and plays another club through dummy?

Unlucky. Yes, that would be the problem with that line.

Yeah you also lose the chance that if the CK is actually on, RHO lazily pitches down to 2-2 in the blacks and you have a free endplay (happens a lot).

[helene_t]

An intermediate player should be able to get this one right on paper, but I think it would take an advanced player to get this one consistently right at the table.

[inquiry]

An intermediate player should be able to get this one right on paper, but I think it would take an advanced player to get this one consistently right at the table.

I would like people to vote as if the player had all the time in the world, and knew it was a problem hand. Imagine, perhaps (not the purpose of this of course), you were devising a test to rate players skills and people had close to unlimited time to take the test. Under this criteria then, your vote would be intermediate. That is what I thought this problem would would need to solve myself (more about this problem in a summary thread in a few days). However, the voting is tending to require more skill, which is also what I thought the panel would vote.

[TimG]

An intermediate player should be able to get this one right on paper, but I think it would take an advanced player to get this one consistently right at the table.

I think you are probably right if you are talking about the population of forum posters, but in the non-forum bridge playing population, I expect fewer than 1 in 10 would solve this problem on paper. To me, when you are talking about the 90th percentile of players, you're no longer talking about intermediate players. I would put 90th percentile somewhere between advanced and expert.

[nigel_k]

I expect fewer than 1 in 10 would solve this problem on paper. To me, when you are talking about the 90th percentile of players, you're no longer talking about intermediate players. I would put 90th percentile somewhere between advanced and expert.

Yeah I'm sure that's true but I still say it's no more than a 3.0. Basically I unilaterally (and without thinking about it until now) assumed a logarithmic scale not a straight line so out of the total bridge playing population maybe:

 

1.0 40% would get it right

2.0 8% would get it right

3.0 1.6% would get it right

4.0 0.32% would get it right

5.0 0.064% would get it right

 

I would use the term 'expert' to describe less than 1% of bridge players (so not in the BBO sense of 'expert').

[cherdanno]

An intermediate player should be able to get this one right on paper, but I think it would take an advanced player to get this one consistently right at the table.

I think you are probably right if you are talking about the population of forum posters, but in the non-forum bridge playing population, I expect fewer than 1 in 10 would solve this problem on paper. To me, when you are talking about the 90th percentile of players, you're no longer talking about intermediate players. I would put 90th percentile somewhere between advanced and expert.

I don't think its right to define "intermediate" as 50th percentile. Instead of percentile you could scale things by "how long do I have to work on my game to reach this level".

Then your scale would put a negligeable amount between beginner and intermediate, and a much bigger gap between intermediate and advanced.

So I would put intermediate in bridge at the 80th percentile, whereas i would put intermediate in skiing at the 10th percentile of the skiers you see on the slopes at any given day.

[TimG]

I expect fewer than 1 in 10 would solve this problem on paper.  To me, when you are talking about the 90th percentile of players, you're no longer talking about intermediate players.  I would put 90th percentile somewhere between advanced and expert.

Yeah I'm sure that's true but I still say it's no more than a 3.0. Basically I unilaterally (and without thinking about it until now) assumed a logarithmic scale not a straight line so out of the total bridge playing population maybe:

 

1.0 40% would get it right

2.0 8% would get it right

3.0 1.6% would get it right

4.0 0.32% would get it right

5.0 0.064% would get it right

 

I would use the term 'expert' to describe less than 1% of bridge players (so not in the BBO sense of 'expert').

I think of things similarly, beginner might be the 1st 50%, intermediate the next 30%, advanced the next 18% and expert and other being the remaining 2%. Not exactly logarithmic, but similar to what you are saying.

[inquiry]

So far 41 votes, ranging from a low of 2.0 to a high of 4. I am certain it does not take an expert to find this play. The forum members have voted this as a 2.8. I would have voted this a 2.0 or 2.5, but upon reflection, it looks like the community vote is a better indicator than my original opinion. Thanks....

[cherdanno]

Umm I will never pass inquiry in posts, hence my undertitle (inquiry-1). That's why I post on PhantomSac now when I am 1 post less than inquiry.

 

Josh will pass him soon though.

Wow what happened to that plan? I didn't follow BBF much for a few weeks and now I don't even know whether Jdonn or Jlall surpassed inquiry first!

[Jlall]

Umm I will never pass inquiry in posts, hence my undertitle (inquiry-1). That's why I post on PhantomSac now when I am 1 post less than inquiry.

 

Josh will pass him soon though.

Wow what happened to that plan? I didn't follow BBF much for a few weeks and now I don't even know whether Jdonn or Jlall surpassed inquiry first!

Jdonn passed inquiry by a lot, so I felt comfortable passing inquiry too.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Jlall

[jdonn]

Darnit, he was going to be my buffer. You could definitely be #1 if you wanted, in fact you are if you add jlall + phantomsac + jlol.

[Phil]

2.5 feels right. Agree with TimG about where different abilities fall, but if you wanted to use masterpoints as a determinant ( :) ), you can rely on this: MP Distribution.

 

If we want to call someone below 500 points "intermediate or worse" that would include +/- 70% of all players.

[Phil]

Darnit, he was going to be my buffer. You could definitely be #1 if you wanted, in fact you are if you add jlall + phantomsac + jlol.

and occasionally Clee when he leaves his laptop logged in at tournaments :)

[cloa513]

It does depend on what happens in the play. It just depends on keeping count like if the opener had 6♠, 4 ♦ and 3♥ then it would only be a 2.5 level difficulty contract. Counting isn`t as difficult as an endplay.