2NT vs spades

[gwnn]

After reading the gnasher post that

1m-1♠-x-2♠

2NT ought to be a good 3♥ bid, we came up with the agreement that

 

"whenever (at least) one of us showed hearts and opponents bid to 2♠, 2NT from either of us shows a good 3♥ bid (unless it's impossible)"

 

what do you think? do you think there's some sequences where it's bad? other sequences when something like this could be agreed?

[awm]

There are a few questions here, after 1m-1♠-X-2♠:

 

(1) What is 3♥ by opener? Can it be a dead minimum, or does it show a bit extra?

(2) What is X by opener? If takeout/responsive, can it ever include four hearts?

(3) What do you do with hands containing substantial extras but spade strength/length?

 

My view is that 3♥ by opener shows some extras (not as much as a normal 3♥ jump necessarily through), that X is initially responsive and correcting to 3♥ shows extras, and that 2NT is naturalish with a strong hand. Obviously you can rearrange these, but I'd be wary of a style where you have three ways to raise hearts to the three-level (3♥, X...3♥, 2NT) and no way at all to show the hand with extras and spade cards.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Playing 2NT in this seq. as reverse Good-Bad makes sense,

that is what you are basically suggesting, just restricting 2NT

to show a good heart raise.

I dont think, that it is necessary to restrict the 2NT bid, 2NT

could also include a good 3m bid.

 

And to answer your last question: Yes you can extend - if they

have last bid a suit on the 2 level, and we bid 2NT, 2NT is always

reverse good-bad, what is contained in 2NT is depend on the

situation.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gnasher]

Your rule would make this:

  1♠ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT

a raise, which is sensible.

 

It appears that it would also cover these:

  1♥ 1♠ dbl 2♠

  2NT

 

  1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♠

  2NT

 

  1♥ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠

  2NT

Using 2NT as a good 3♥ bid in these sequences doesn't seem that sensible. Perhaps your rule should be that *partner* has to have shown some heart length.

 

After

  1m pass 1♥ 1♠

  dbl 2♠

do you intend to use 2NT as confirming a 5-3 heart fit and showing invitational values? If so, that seems sensible. Then you can use 3m as competitive with only four hearts.

[karlson]

I think a better rule would be something like "If there's no cuebid available lower than the lowest raise and 2n is available, then 2n is a good raise".

 

That also covers the equally troubling auctions like 1♠-2♦-2♠.

 

I guess if you apply it to more than overcalls it makes 1♣-2♠-2NT (or 1♥-2♠-2N) a raise. Shrug, that's probably good too.

[nigel_k]

If you're giving up a natural 2NT you may as well play transfers so 3♦ is a good raise. It doesn't leave space for a further try but has plenty of other benefits.

[gwnn]

the sequence that started this whole thing was:

 

1♣-1♠-x-p

2♥-2♠-2NT

 

which is in a way suited for natural but not really is it?

[aguahombre]

the sequence that started this whole thing was:

 

1♣-1♠-x-p

2♥-2♠-2NT

 

which is in a way suited for natural but not really is it?

2-3-5-3, for instance ---with about 11 not really wanting to play Nt?

 

Doubling again after pard bids 2H might suggest penalty with 4 hearts and good spades behind? With good spades behind and not 4 hearts, perhaps some number of NT would have bid bid last round.

[gwnn]

you can bid 2♦ or 2NT with 2353. I don't think x then freebid to 2NT is a sensible option.

[aguahombre]

you can bid 2♦ or 2NT with 2353. I don't think x then freebid to 2NT is a sensible option.

unless, of course, your partnership thinks a direct 2NT should have a spade stopper, or that 2D commits to game.

[gwnn]

so now that they bid to 2♠ and we don't have a stopper it's better to bid 2NT? why?

[aguahombre]

explained in my first post. But it is just a style thing. You don't have to like or use 2NT in a semi-artificial way, if you don't choose.

[gwnn]

It is usually practical and somewhat respectful to assume that someone who you're talking to is listening to you. Therefore when all signs show that the person in question has either:

• not read anything you have posted so far and just asks random questions to pretend he is some sort of Socrates, or
  
• is genuinely puzzled and confused
  

it would be preferable to assume the second alternative and not the first one.

 

I am not saying I necessarily deserve your respect, I am just asking for it and I would still like to know what kind of hand it is that "doesn't want to play NT" and doesn't want to bid diamonds but the system needs to cater for it so badly that it is acceptable to make the x show 3-4 hearts.

[aguahombre]

ok...in our style, we would not like to bid 2d after:

 

1C (1S) with something like XX KXX QXXXX AQX.

 

We play 2D as a stronger hand, but even if we didn't, it is one suck suit.

 

Therefore, it would be nice to be able to bid 2Nt in a semi-artificial way after:

 

1C (1S) X (P)

2H (2S) .

 

We would also like to penalize the 2s bidder, or suggest penalty if we had spades behind him and values (such as, KTXX KXXX AXX XX). If we bid 2NT in a natural sense, he is off the hook.

[awm]

This sequence: 1m-1♠-X-p; 2♥-2♠-2NT

 

is a lot different than the other sequences named. Here we have a clear fit in hearts (barring that we play a style where the double is often made without four hearts, which is certainly nonstandard). So it makes sense for 2NT (or really any call by responder here) to agree hearts. The natural meaning is that 2NT shows a spade control and balanced hand, suggesting 3NT as a possible game rather than 4♥, but this is admittedly rare (and rare that you end in 3NT anyway) especially since a hand with real spade values might double 2♠ instead. It makes sense to play that 2NT is some artificial game try or better (say asking opener about his hand) whereas 3♥ is just competitive and bidding three of a minor is a more descriptive game try.

 

The other auctions mentioned in this thread are normally cases where hearts have been shown by one partner but never raised by the other. In these sequences there are a lot of non-heart hands where you'd like to bid, and making 2NT a heart raise creates some issues elsewhere in the methods. Double is also available as takeout-oriented, and some hands with hearts can double and then correct (double in the auction above instead of 2NT should be penalty of course).