two mp balancing decisons

[karlson]

1. w/w mp. ♠xx ♥xx ♦QTxxx ♣AJxx

 

partner deals, p-(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p-(p)

 

 

2. w/r mp. ♠xx ♥Axx ♦Q6xxx ♣Kxx

lefty deals, (p)-p-(1♥)-p-(1♠)-p-(p)

[PhantomSac]

2N and X.

 

I considered 2D on the 2nd one but I want to give partner a chance to bid 1N, and clubs might be the right spot, so 2D seems a bit rash.

[mich-b]

1. Pass

Since pd has passed as dealer, we are not likely to be close to maing anything on the 3 level , and down 2 is quite likely.

 

2. Dbl.

This time I am a level lower, so will try to push them higher.

Not sure between Dbl and 2♦ , but DBL allows pd to bid 1NT.

[PhantomSac]

1. Pass

Since pd has passed as dealer, we are not likely to be close to maing anything on the 3 level , and down 2 is quite likely.

AFAIK -100 is a good score vs a partial! -50 is ok too! And we might make something if we catch a decent fit which is pretty likely given that partner didn't overcall 2S.

[kgr]

1. 2NT on the first one. A fit in the minors is very likely. This would be a more difficult decision at IMPs.

2. DBL. (more difficult then the 1st one for me)

[MarkDean]

We had the same auctions at my table (I was sitting EW). First one, RHO (I believe not that strong of a player) made a reluctant pass. Second one RHO (good player) made an untroubled pass.

[gnasher]

I wouldn't bid on the first one. The opponents have at least 22HCP between them, and there's a good chance that partner is 4-3 in the majors, so we may not have much of a fit. If I bid 2NT, it gives LHO a chance to double to show a maximum, after which we may well get doubled in three of a minor for -300.

 

If they bid on, they'll probably make, especially after I've told them how to play the hand. -140 in 2♥ is better than -170 in 3♥.

[Lobowolf]

Definitely 2NT on the first one for me. Nothing good happens at matchpoints when you defend 2M not vulnerable and the opponents have a fit.

 

I'd probably bid 2♦ on the second, but Justin has me reconsidering the double.

[karlson]

We had the same auctions at my table (I was sitting EW). First one, RHO (I believe not that strong of a player) made a reluctant pass. Second one RHO (good player) made an untroubled pass.

What the hell, now it's your turn not to limit raise with a limit raise?

[karlson]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

 

2. partner had KQJx J9 xxx QJTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. (I bid 2d, but geting to 1n will suffer the same fate. If partner comes up with 2c, I think he'll get out for 300)

[gnasher]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

[karlson]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, partner had a terrible hand with a lousy suit, QJT of hearts, and in general a pretty low odr. But maybe I should have posted partner's problem.

[Jlall]

I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Seems pretty normal unless the thirteenth card was a heart...?

[Jlall]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, partner had a terrible hand with a lousy suit, QJT of hearts, and in general a pretty low odr. But maybe I should have posted partner's problem.

So? It is MP w/w and he has 5 spades. Passing is good if both 2H and 2S are down. That is such an extremely unlikely scenario (14 total tricks in the majors?). If 2H is making 2S will be fine, and if 2S is making 2S will be fine.

 

People are not doubling 2S nearly as often as you think.

[MarkDean]

Thirteenth card was a club.

[quiddity]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, partner had a terrible hand with a lousy suit, QJT of hearts, and in general a pretty low odr. But maybe I should have posted partner's problem.

So? It is MP w/w and he has 5 spades. Passing is good if both 2H and 2S are down. That is such an extremely unlikely scenario (14 total tricks in the majors?). If 2H is making 2S will be fine, and if 2S is making 2S will be fine.

 

People are not doubling 2S nearly as often as you think.

But isn't there a decent chance that a like-minded partner will bid 3S over 3H because it's MP, w/w?

[gnasher]

But isn't there a decent chance that a like-minded partner will bid 3S over 3H because it's MP, w/w?

No, partner should be cautious in competing to 3♠, because he knows what sort of hands would overcall 2♠. 3♠ is much easier to double than 2♠, especially when the opponents know that we have a hand that couldn't open 1♠ opposite a hand that couldn't make a takeout double of 1♥.

[PhantomSac]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, partner had a terrible hand with a lousy suit, QJT of hearts, and in general a pretty low odr. But maybe I should have posted partner's problem.

So? It is MP w/w and he has 5 spades. Passing is good if both 2H and 2S are down. That is such an extremely unlikely scenario (14 total tricks in the majors?). If 2H is making 2S will be fine, and if 2S is making 2S will be fine.

 

People are not doubling 2S nearly as often as you think.

But isn't there a decent chance that a like-minded partner will bid 3S over 3H because it's MP, w/w?

It seems really backwards to me to not bid 2S because partner might bid 3S over 3H. Because of this, it's better to pass and likely not get to 2S to begin with? Just bid 2S with a very wide range to force them to 3H and then figure out what to do. Sure having a wider range will cause partner to not compete to 3S enough sometimes, but it's more important to push them up and find your spade fit more often. I will take less accuracy for competing to 3S over defending 2H or playing in 3m instead of 2S more often any day.

[Siegmund]

I would have bid an easy 2NT and a reluctant 2D and taken my lumps. I'm a lot more nervous about the 2nd hand than the first, partly since they seem to have only a 7-card fit.

 

And had I been in the opponents' chair, the raise to 2H on the 3334 AKK hand looks very correct.

[fred]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Phew I was starting to think I was crazy, or terrible at mps, or both.

[PhantomSac]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Really? You know this hand was a PH right (just asking in case you didn't notice, because as an UPH I would totally see where you're coming from).

 

Do you really think 2H and 2S are both down 1 that often, or do you think even as a passed hand you will get overboard by bidding 2S with this hand? Or do you think you get Xed too often, or do you think that partner will almost always reopen for you anyways when it's right? Just trying to gauge why you wouldn't bid 2S on this hand.

 

IMO 2H is making really often and if it's not 2S will often make. Despite my very defensive oriented holdings/negative LOTT adjustments, we are still only talking about 15 total tricks being necessary (and maybe even 14 if it's 8 and 6 either way as opposed to 7 and 7). If either of these contracts is making, I really want to bid 2S. I feel protected by PH status that we won't get overboard, and I don't think they double 2S very often at all. Even though a lot of the times it's right to bid 2S here partner will balance, I still feel like the times he passes it out, or reopens with 2N or 3m instead of X so we can't play 2S, we will be doing very poorly in general.

 

I'm not really worried about getting partner off to a bad lead if we end up defending, or worried about telling them how to play the hand if we end up defending (given my hand), so neither of those is a concern to me.

 

If they have a game, even if they can get us for 500, I expect them to just bid their game most of the time. Ofc -500 or more into their game is possible, or -300 into their partial, but that just doesn't seem to happen that often. As gnasher says, people are very hungry doubling the 3 level, but I think much less so at the 2 level.

 

It seems like if you won't bid 2S here as a PH, you aren't bidding it very often, and that feels like a mistake at MP w/w in my experience.

[PhantomSac]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Phew I was starting to think I was crazy, or terrible at mps, or both.

We all know you're terrible at MP jdonn :D Haha jk, obv Fred is a very successful player at MP as well as imps (much much moreso than me) so I'm definitely surprised to see him say he wouldn't consider bidding 2S with that because in my mind it was automatic.

[fred]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Really? You know this hand was a PH right (just asking in case you didn't notice, because as an UPH I would totally see where you're coming from).

 

Do you really think 2H and 2S are both down 1 that often, or do you think even as a passed hand you will get overboard by bidding 2S with this hand? Or do you think you get Xed too often, or do you think that partner will almost always reopen for you anyways when it's right? Just trying to gauge why you wouldn't bid 2S on this hand.

 

IMO 2H is making really often and if it's not 2S will often make. Despite my very defensive oriented holdings/negative LOTT adjustments, we are still only talking about 15 total tricks being necessary (and maybe even 14 if it's 8 and 6 either way as opposed to 7 and 7). If either of these contracts is making, I really want to bid 2S. I feel protected by PH status that we won't get overboard, and I don't think they double 2S very often at all. Even though a lot of the times it's right to bid 2S here partner will balance, I still feel like the times he passes it out, or reopens with 2N or 3m instead of X so we can't play 2S, we will be doing very poorly in general.

 

I'm not really worried about getting partner off to a bad lead if we end up defending, or worried about telling them how to play the hand if we end up defending (given my hand), so neither of those is a concern to me.

 

If they have a game, even if they can get us for 500, I expect them to just bid their game most of the time. Ofc -500 or more into their game is possible, or -300 into their partial, but that just doesn't seem to happen that often. As gnasher says, people are very hungry doubling the 3 level, but I think much less so at the 2 level.

 

It seems like if you won't bid 2S here as a PH, you aren't bidding it very often, and that feels like a mistake at MP w/w in my experience.

The way I see it...

 

One problem with bidding 2S is that you have no particular reason to expect that, if you Pass instead, your RHO will Pass too. Granted this will happen a sizable chunk of the time, but sometimes when it does your partner (who can also see that it is matchpoints with none vul) will balance with DBL. My partners will be more inclinced to balance with DBL than your partners since they know that a hand like the one in question is still possible. Granted sometimes 2H will get passed out and that it is usually bad at MPs to defend 2H undoubled, but that doesn't mean you will always get a zero. With this particular hand, if 2H was passed out, I would have some hope that we had judged correctly (because partner, marked with some values and few hearts, will strive to balance especially with some spade length, and because my heart holding is extremely defensive).

 

Suppose you overcall 2S and there is more bidding. It feels like partner, if he is familiar with your style, is essentially barred from ever raising you. That means that, when you actually have some offense for your 2S bid (yes I did know that you are a passed hand), partner has a fit, and it is right to play in 3S or 4S(doubled or not), you can't ever do so.

 

Even if you assume that partner will always do the right thing (ie Pass) if you bid 2S with this hand, maybe your RHO is always going to make a game try or bid 4H no matter what you do. In that case it is possible that the knowledge you have spade length will help declarer play the hand. Of course it is also possible in this case that 2S could be an effective lead direct, but 2S could also backfire in this regard.

 

[Edit: I see now that you already mentioned the points I just made in my previous paragraph and I agree these factors are not that big a deal]

 

Of course there are plenty of other ways that each style might win or lose. Like I said in my last post, I can't state with any confidence that when you add it all up (if that is even possible) that Pass would be a clear winner. This is partly a style/philosophy issue and I could easily be biased by having played this way forever or by my general dislike for bidding with nothing (unless you are psyching of course).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

1. partner had QJxxx QJT Jx QTx. Bidding was a disaster of -500. I don't know why righty bid only 2h on ATx xxx Kxx Kxx.

Why didn't partner bid 2♠ over 2♥? That's much harder for them to double.

In case the strong opinions in favor of 2S cause some to think that this style is universal among experts...

 

I have to admit that it would not occur to me to bid 2S with this hand.

 

That should not be seen as a claim that I know which style is "best".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Phew I was starting to think I was crazy, or terrible at mps, or both.

We all know you're terrible at MP jdonn :D Haha jk, obv Fred is a very successful player at MP as well as imps (much much moreso than me) so I'm definitely surprised to see him say he wouldn't consider bidding 2S with that because in my mind it was automatic.

In fairness I'm somewhat in between you two. I wouldn't have bid it, but the thought would have definitely occurred to me.