What now?

[PhantomSac]

AQ x JT8xx xxxxx

 

w/w imps, starting with partner:

 

1S (2C) p (2H)

X (4H) ?

[jjbrr]

I'd try 4NT. No idea what it means, but it can't be natural. I hope it suggests diamonds with ♠ tolerance and better than 5♦ directly.

[helene_t]

Disagree with 4NT showing diamonds with spade tolerance. If we have four spades we can maybe bid 4♠. If we have three spades (or two!) we don't want to play 5♠.

 

Assuming that 2♣ is natural I bid 5♦.

[whereagles]

4NT, showing minors with tolerance for minors :)

[jjbrr]

Disagree with 4NT showing diamonds with spade tolerance. If we have four spades we can maybe bid 4♠. If we have three spades (or two!) we don't want to play 5♠.

 

Assuming that 2♣ is natural I bid 5♦.

with 3♠ i think it's crystal clear to bid 4 or more ♠. 4NT, in my mind, implies exactly 2. You may disagree with that, but that is what I meant by tolerance.

[PhantomSac]

If you bid 4N please state how you mean it (some kind of slam try in diamonds, or something that implies a doubleton spade).

[helene_t]

oh sorry I suck, I somehow thought the opening bid was 1NT.

[Winstonm]

I don't think it is clear to bid anything. Partner doubled at the 2-level. He didn't know our next bid was going to come at the 4-level. He does not have to have all that big of hand for his actions and with no good known fit it seems more like guesswork to me that we have action that needs to be taken.

 

I think pass is best.

[fred]

I don't think it is clear to bid anything.  Partner doubled at the 2-level.  He didn't know our next bid was going to come at the 4-level.  He does not have to have all that big of hand for his actions and with no good known fit it seems more like guesswork to me that we have action that needs to be taken.

 

I think pass is best.

Granted that partner doesn't have to have a huge hand, but you have one!

 

If I had to choose between Passing and bidding 6D, I would certainly choose 6D. I might even choose 7D over Pass.

 

Fortunately you have a few choices in between :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[PhantomSac]

I don't think it is clear to bid anything.  Partner doubled at the 2-level.  He didn't know our next bid was going to come at the 4-level.  He does not have to have all that big of hand for his actions and with no good known fit it seems more like guesswork to me that we have action that needs to be taken.

 

I think pass is best.

Granted that partner doesn't have to have a huge hand, but you have one!

 

If I had to choose between Passing and bidding 6D, I would certainly choose 6D. I might even choose 7D over Pass.

 

Fortunately you have a few choices in between :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Glad you posted this I kind of thought even 4N/5C was not enough and that 6D was the right bid... is that going overboard?

[fred]

I don't think it is clear to bid anything.  Partner doubled at the 2-level.  He didn't know our next bid was going to come at the 4-level.  He does not have to have all that big of hand for his actions and with no good known fit it seems more like guesswork to me that we have action that needs to be taken.

 

I think pass is best.

Granted that partner doesn't have to have a huge hand, but you have one!

 

If I had to choose between Passing and bidding 6D, I would certainly choose 6D. I might even choose 7D over Pass.

 

Fortunately you have a few choices in between :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Glad you posted this I kind of thought even 4N/5C was not enough and that 6D was the right bid... is that going overboard?

Well Ms. Sac, my sense is that a slam try is enough, but it would not surprise me if someone might be able to convince me otherwise (or that I eventually convince myself).

 

My reasoning is mostly based on thinking that, if I make a slam try and partner signs off in 5D, I don't think we can be missing a cold slam (though we could easily be missing a playable slam - maybe involving playing trumps for no losers opposite AKxx or AQxx).

 

I think 4NT is a better bid than 5C, both because it would be nice to have the Ace of clubs for 5C and also because 4NT gives partner room to bid 5C if he not sure how many diamonds to bid.

 

Actually this last point (about partner being able to bid 5C over 4NT), makes me feel more strongly about not driving to slam than I felt when I wrote the first paragraph of this post.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[PhantomSac]

I was partner, I had K9xxxx Axx AQxx ---, I think I would bid 5C over 4N, and would just bid 5D over 5C, so I agree wrt to 4N>5C.

[jjbrr]

I originally bid 4NT because I wanted partner to be able to bid 5♣. I admit it was a mistake not to include this in my explanation, but I'm glad you agree with my unstated thought process.

[Winstonm]

f I had to choose between Passing and bidding 6D, I would certainly choose 6D.

 

I was partner, I had K9xxxx Axx AQxx

 

 

Reaching 6D looks an overbid. After all, all partner did was make a double at the 2-level. I like my hand OK, but it is about a King short of getting excited with unless partner can act again over 4H IMO.

[jjbrr]

I feel this hand is worth slightly more than a 5.5♦ bid. The only reason I don't just bid 6♦ is I don't want to go minus. I don't think it's a king short of anything except a grand try, depending on which king it is.

[jdonn]

Winston you are GROSSLY underestimating how much partner is showing. He really can't have less than he did. He is doubling into the middle of the opponents' live auction, having already opened the bidding, when no one has shown a fit yet.

[Winstonm]

Granted that partner doesn't have to have a huge hand, but you have one!

 

I have certainly been wrong before and may be again this time, but in my experience partner is more likely to be 6331 or 5341 than 6340. While I like my hand pretty well and can recognize it fits with partners suits, it does not fit well enough to prompt me to play a 5-3 diamond fit or a 5-2 spade fit at high levels.

 

If I were inclined to bid, I would be more prone to 4S than any other bid. Of course, If the double of 2H guarantees 4 diamonds, I am wrong and my assessment of the situation would change.

[Winstonm]

Winston you are GROSSLY underestimating how much partner is showing. He really can't have less than he did. He is doubling into the middle of the opponents' live auction, having already opened the bidding, when no one has shown a fit yet.

You are most likely right - I am sure I did not give this hand enough thought. When you start looking at 6331 and 5341 hands they really aren't good enough with which to double in this auction.

[PhantomSac]

Jeremy if you think 4N shows a good 5D bid why do you think it shows a doubleton spade also? What would you do with a good 5D bid that didn't have a doubleton spade?

[jjbrr]

ya i guess it doesnt preclude ♠. i could certainly pull whatever you bid back to X♠.

 

i just think 4N is showing good something, as opposed to placing the contract which shows bad something. i dont think i can bid 4N with stiff x in ♠ and relative length in their suits, though. right? construct a hand where i have stiff ♠ and still a slam try. there arent many hands.

 

i just dont know what target youre aiming at that has x<2<x spades. its almost nonexistent.

[PhantomSac]

ya i guess it doesnt preclude ♠. i could certainly pull whatever you bid back to X♠.

 

i just think 4N is showing good something, as opposed to placing the contract which shows bad something. i dont think i can bid 4N with stiff x in ♠ and relative length in their suits, though. right? construct a hand where i have stiff ♠ and still a slam try. there arent many hands.

x Ax KJxxx xxxxx etc, a slam try with any hand type is unlikely on this auction but I would guess a stiff spade is as likely as a hand without one.

 

Obviously a hand with 3+ spades is not possible since you would have raised spades to begin with if you had anything.

[jjbrr]

if you bid 5♠ with that, im happy bidding 6♦.

 

if you bid 5♦, i pass.

 

edit: if you bid 5♣, i bid 6♦

 

edit2: does my number of ♠ really matter? the number of options on this hand are so limited that i will either bid slam or not depending on if you cooperate. im happy saying 4NT is ambiguous and forward-going. the important thing is you have 5♣ to cuebid. with spades i think i'll likely bid an ambiguous 5♥. i admit this is completely esoteric, but what else can these bids mean?

[PhantomSac]

if you bid 5♠ with that, im happy bidding 6♦.

 

if you bid 5♦, i pass.

 

edit: if you bid 5♣, i bid 6♦

???

 

I'm saying "I don't understand why 4N should show a doubleton spade. It seems like it should just be a slam try in diamonds."

 

I don't understand what your most recent post means. My question is, "Why do you think 4N should show a doubleton spade as well as a slam try in diamonds, rather than just a slam try in diamonds. What relevance is the doubleton spade supposed to have?"

[jjbrr]

ok you win. i agree it says nothing about spades. i edited while you were responding.

[jjbrr]

i still think the range of hands I can have to bid 4NT will have 2♠ a huge majority of the time.