positives vs semipositives

[straube]

Did you mean 2C GF Now 2D 0-1?

 

2D = 0-2, absolute rubbish hand, one Q at best. This puts you in a good position - well ahead of strong 2C openers, and you still have plenty of room to discover shape. See responses above.

I still don't see the sense of asking partner if he has rubbish if 2C has established a GF. In almost any other GF auction, one finds fit first and then looks for extras. If 2C doesn't quite establish GF, then I understand trying to get the GF.

 

Look at the scheme I proposed in my other recent thread which allows responder to show many of his shapes. Other than memory load (a real consideration), why not go with something like that and once you've found your fit, ask whether partner truly has rubbish or has extras.

 

Let's say you've discovered partner has 1-4-3-5 and you have a heart fit. You've created extra room at the 4-level to see if partner has 0, 1, or 2 slam points. I don't see the sense of using bidding space below 3N for this.

 

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy. He wants...

1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

 

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand

.....2S-artificial GF

.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

 

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed. I admit his structure is safer. He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative. But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

[akhare]

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy.  He wants...

1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

 

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand

.....2S-artificial GF

.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

 

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed.  I admit his structure is safer.  He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative.  But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

I wouldn't want to play 2♣ as an absolute GF either, but it seems that can play the proposed alternative *and* SPs using:

 

1♣ - 1♠ (FN) - 2♣ (22+) - 2♦ (SN -- absolute junk) - blah

[straube]

Now my local expert thinks 2C as a GF is crazy.  He wants...

1C-1D (neg), 1H-1S (DN), 2C-2D (TN)...

 

.....2H-puppets 2S to show GF balanced hand or heart hand

.....2S-artificial GF

.....2N-nf balanced hand (guessing 22-23)

 

So after 2S, responder can show one of 13 hand types before 3N has been passed.  I admit his structure is safer.  He can get out at 2N when partner has that third negative.  But I think he's wasting quite a bit of room when 1) partner really does have some useful values (most of the time) and 2) partner has a useful shape.

I wouldn't want to play 2♣ as an absolute GF either, but it seems that can play the proposed alternative *and* SPs using:

 

1♣ - 1♠ (FN) - 2♣ (22+) - 2♦ (SN -- absolute junk) - blah

Well, let me argue with you.

 

The_Hog's 1C-1S, 2N is 21-22 and that seems about right. So 2C is going to be 23+ balanced (or equivalent unbalanced strength). That's only one point shy of the 24 HCPs that many systems require for a unilateral decision to force game in 3N.

 

The_Hog's structure uses 1C-1S, 2C-2H to show a 2-suited hand which isn't a bust. This leaves 6 steps to describe 13 different patterns. That would leave enough room to show every 5/4 or 4/5 pattern, but not enough room to show shortness or 5/5s.

 

Just seems like for want of one point in opener's hand, we shouldn't give up on having a more complete picture of partner's pattern.

 

Don't know if you remember it, but we practiced-bid a hand in which you had a 5431 pattern and junk but 6 was biddable because of the good fit.

[akhare]

Well, let me argue with you.

 

The_Hog's 1C-1S, 2N is 21-22 and that seems about right. So 2C is going to be 23+ balanced (or equivalent unbalanced strength). That's only one point shy of the 24 HCPs that many systems require for a unilateral decision to force game in 3N.

 

The_Hog's structure uses 1C-1S, 2C-2H to show a 2-suited hand which isn't a bust. This leaves 6 steps to describe 13 different patterns. That would leave enough room to show every 5/4 or 4/5 pattern, but not enough room to show shortness or 5/5s.

 

Just seems like for want of one point in opener's hand, we shouldn't give up on having a more complete picture of partner's pattern.

 

Don't know if you remember it, but we practiced-bid a hand in which you had a 5431 pattern and junk but 6 was biddable because of the good fit.

22 was just a number for illustration...the point being that 1♠ and SP responses can accomplish the 1♣ - 1♦ proposal suggested by your pard and offer more in the bargain.

[straube]

1C-1S, 2C-2D (TN) would make more sense to me if 2C showed 21+. In this setup, one gains when 21+ is opposite a hand with a value or two (compared to 1C-1S, 2N with 21-22), but loses with 23+ opposite anything but total drek.

 

Still hoping to hear more about awm's system.

[keylime]

We don't relay after 1C-1D due to 1) rebidding frequent 4 card majors and 2) trying to get into our best fit quickly.

[awm]

Still hoping to hear more about awm's system.

Well there's a slightly out-of-date version on my webpage.

 

I'm not going to repeat the whole thing here, but I can give a few highlights of the 1♣-1♦ sequence, which seems to be the most relevant one. We play 1♦ as 0-4 (any) or various GF hands (usually 7+ RP). Opener bids:

 

1♥ = 4+♥ or 21+ balanced without 4♠; F1

1♠ = 4+♠; if balanced then 21+; F1

1N = 17-20 balanced, not at all forcing, systems on

2♣ = 5+♣, unbalanced, no other 5-card suit, can have 4♥ but never 4♠, 16-20, NF

2♦ = 5+♦, unbalanced, no other 5-card suit, maybe 4♣, 16-20 NF

2♥ = 4♥ and 5+♣, 21+ hcp, forcing one round

2♠ = 5+/5+ in the minors, 16+ hcp, forcing one round

2N = 21+ hcp, 6+ in a minor, no 4M, if unbalanced then less than GF

3X = shortness in the other suit of same rank; no 4M; 21+ hcp and effectively forcing to game

 

Many of these are fairly natural. In most cases responder can initiate a game-forcing relay, for example:

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT = GF relay

1♣-1♦-1♠-1NT = GF relay

1♣-1♦-2♣-2♦ = GF relay

1♣-1♦-2♦-2♥ = GF relay

1♣-1♦-2♥-2♠ = GF relay

1♣-1♦-2♠-2NT = GF relay

 

Responder's other calls normally show the 0-4 hand and are very often non-forcing. In some cases responder can pass opener's rebid. For example:

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ = "ordinary" double negative, but forcing one round

1♣-1♦-1♥-2X = distributional hands in the double negative range, fairly natural

1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣ = "ordinary" double negative with 0-2 spades, NF if opener has 4+♣

1♣-1♦-1♠-2X = natural with 0-4

1♣-1♦-2m-Pass or 3m = natural with 0-4

1♣-1♦-2♣-2M = natural with 0-4

[straube]

Thanks a lot. I'm still digesting it, but it seems like you have a really strong system.

 

I like stuff like 1C-1D, 1H-2H, 2N (just kidding about hearts). You make lots of use of sequences like that.

 

OTOH, what a memory load...especially for the non-GF auctions.

 

Would your system be playable if you tightened the semipositives back to 3-5? It just seems like 2-6 is a wide range for investigating/forcing game, but perhaps that's necessary.

 

Thanks again.

[PrecisionL]

Keylime and I use an old Precision approach (One Club Complete by Radin & Kathy Wei) by using 1♣ - 1♦  as the 0-7 hcp negative and 1♥ and 1♠  rebids by opener are 4+ cards and a 1-round force. We focus on distribution by opener and strength by responder. Responder's cheapest bid (playing IMPs) is a Herbert negative, 0-4 hcp without an Ace.

 

We play transfer positive responses to 1♣ with 4+ majors, 1NT with both majors, and 2♣ with one or both minors.

 

Thee is also Lutz's and Fink's American Forcing Minor System, 1995.

Responses to 1♣ (16+ depending on suit):

 

1♦  0-3 hcp or 8-13 hcp

1♥  4-7 and 3-6 hearts

1♠  4-7 and 3-7 spades

1NT 14+

2♣  4-7 and 6+ clubs

2♦  4-7 and 6+ diamonds

2♥  4-7 and 6+ hearts

2♠  4-7 and 6+ spades

2NT 4-7 and 6 diamonds & 5 clubs

3♣  4-7 and 5 diamonds & 6 clubs

X 9+

XX 10+