Zar points

[bab9]

I am relatively new to bridge, and want to improve my game as quickly as possible.

 

While trying to learn more about bridge I came across Zar points. From what I can tell this concept was raised in 2005. Since that time, I have been unable to find any new information on them, or anyone using them.

 

Are people using Zar points? If so, how are you finding them?

 

Is it legal to use Zar points?

 

Is there any updated information on Zar points available?

 

Thanks.

[Chas_P]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar_Points

[Mbodell]

Are people using Zar points?

 

Almost no one uses Zar points. This is primarily because it is too complicated for most beginner/intermediate players, and most adv+ players already make adjustments/judgments/etc. taking into account in a more qualitative way the things that Zar emphasizes over the traditional 4-3-2-1 points. "Everyone" knows shape is important, A's are undervalues and J over valued, etc. The need to use Zar to figure out exactly how much isn't necessary for most who have developed good judgment.

 

If so, how are you finding them?

 

I don't really use them, but occasionally if deciding on an dubious opening/overcall/move etc. I do calculate the Zar values. Or in the postmortem justify something by referring to Zar points. I think they are actually pretty good.

 

Is it legal to use Zar points?

 

Mostly yes. There is an issue with disclosure and with legal conventions that can get tricky. For instance, in the ACBL (and a lot of other places) you can't have the agreement to open constructively on the 1 level with fewer than 8 HCP. So if you have the agreement to open all 26+ ZAR hands with at least 4 cards in a major as 1M you may run foul of the rules on a hand like Axxxxxx Kxxxxx - -. That hand is 7 HCP but has a ZAR count of 7 + 3 + 13 + 7 = 30 which is a clear 1S opener. There are other places where certain bids (1nt, weak 2s, etc.) have restrictions over how wide a range, in HCP, one can agree to open or else what conventions one can use over it. So while you can primarily rely on Zar points if you want, convention regulation may mean you have to double check your HCP to make sure you stay legal. Also, disclosure is problematic if someone asks you what 1s-p-3s is and you say it shows 18-22 Zar points your opponent is likely to be unsure what this means. This is ok if you are willing and able to fully describe to them what it means, but the onus will be on you to do the explaining. This is a little suboptimal IMHO as it burdens the "scientist" (uses Zar points) but lets the "artist" (uses unexplained "judgement") off with less rigorous disclosure.

 

Is there any updated information on Zar points available?

 

In addition to the wikipedia link you can use the wayback machine to read the Zar website. archive of zar points web site.

 

I am relatively new to bridge, and want to improve my game as quickly as possible.

 

I'll add that if you are relatively new to bridge then it is likely your efforts could better be directed to other fields than this. Learning good declarer play techniques, good defensive signaling/thinking, and learning what ever is "standard" bidding in your neck of the woods are probably all going to be more productive for you.

 

That said, if different bidding systems and/or hand evaluation systems is something that interests and excites you such that this is something you want to put your effort into, then using Zar points to help develop judgment might be something that you find useful.

[NickRW]

Answering your questions out of sequence:

 

Is there any updated information on Zar points available?

 

There are some good threads on this board about the subject - use the search option.

 

Is it legal to use Zar points?

 

Yes - you can evaluate a hand any way you like - but you will have to be able to explain to opps in terms they can understand - this, for practical purposes means things like, "Partner's bid shows 14-16ish" ('normal' HCP terms) and leave them to ask what the "ish" means if they want to.

 

Thus it is quite a lot of work - you need to understand your bidding system in your own terms and be able to back translate into HCP. You do get used to it - but it doesn't happen easily overnight.

 

Are people using Zar points?  If so, how are you finding them?

 

I use a version of it - primarily for suit contracts. I've come across a few online that say they've tried it.

 

The 6-4-2-1 for high cards is much better than 4-3-2-1 for suit contracts both from my own double dummy computer tests and from real like experience. It is not a panacea - there will be times when it tells you to get higher or lower than the field and you'll be wrong - but you'll be right more often.

 

6-4-2-1 is a bit OTT for NT - but not a lot worse than 4-3-2-1. Unofrtunately the only good way to improve on 4-3-2-1 anyone has ever found involves some fractions - more work still! See the system of fifths if you're interested.

 

Zar points basic distribution points (a+b )+(a-d) or 2a+b-d is sort of right. But it basically counts 2 points for length in your longest suit. A five card suit is not worth that much - even on the larger 6-4-2-1 scale. Counting shortages 1/3/5 is more accurate - see the mention of "TSP" in the back threads on this board.

 

The biggest bug bear with Zar points (and similar) is that some systems are built around the more NT oriented 4-3-2-1. By this I don't mean particularly that they use HCP - what I mean is that standard, for example, uses a 2/1 response to guarantee a second bid - essentially that the partnership should be safe to 2NT. Sometimes - often in fact - you can have a responding hand that looks invitational in suit terms - but is short on high cards for 2NT. You have to watch this point when converting your system to use such methods.

 

Nick

[NickRW]

One point in favour of 6-4-2-1 that I didn't mention is that your slam bidding should be better. Using that way of counting you relatively rarely want to go past game missing 2 aces - blackwood pretty well becomes redundant - and you can safely think of recycling 4NT as having some other meaning - we use it as a cue to show trump honours - but the point is you can do something useful with it. Leaving 4NT as purely natural would be OK - at least you won't be getting into the "was that 4NT blackwood or not?" discussions that sometimes plague other partnerships

 

Nick

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

Have you joined the BIL group here? You might want to check with them.

 

Play in the strongest game that you can join.

 

Find a partner and learn to play one system.

 

Only play conventions that you understand.

 

Go over the hands that you play with your partner and try to see what went wrong.

 

Cut down on the simple errors and your game will get better.

 

Enjoy. This is a great game.

 

Regards,

Robert

[inquiry]

Zar pointsZar points have been discussed, at legnth, in these forums over the years. I think they are great for beginners, because beginners lack the skills of hand judgement that more advanced players have, but I am probably in the minority in this opinion.

 

Anyway, below are some of the links in this forum where they are discussed (if you search for "ZAR points" in quotes, you will find 13 pages of post, but many someone just refers to Zar points as a side issue on a hand someone showed).

 

Zar points, useful or waste of energy, New to the concept, does it help... Fifteeen pages of forum discussion on the merits of Zar points.

 

Fought the law ans zar points

Zar points in competitive auctions

zar points and hands with no defensive strength, Problems if opps compete ?

Fine tuning ZAR points., Help me with my adjustments...

Zar Point Questions, understanding how it works

Zar evaluation and 2004 Cavendish, Invitational Pairs

Zar points for opening bids, terrible evaluation method

Zar points, what, now why

One for ZAR point fans, How big do you stretch?

 

And some other useful threads

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=3219&hl=

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=3385&hl=

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=2871&hl=

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=3112&hl=

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=4606&hl=

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=6733&hl=

[nigel_k]

[i'll add that if you are relatively new to bridge then it is likely your efforts could better be directed to other fields than this. Learning good declarer play techniques, good defensive signaling/thinking, and learning what ever is "standard" bidding in your neck of the woods are probably all going to be more productive for you.

This is great advice. Some specific things you can do:

 

1. Read books (and lots of them). Read these forums too.

2. Watch vugraph.

3. Analyze hands double dummy to understand how cards take tricks

4. Develop your bidding judgment, eg by using computer generated hands

 

As far as Zar points are concerned, the important thing to understand is that they represent a (fairly accurate) assessment of the hand's *average* trick taking potential. But the actual tricks taken will also depend on whether you play in your suit, your shortage, or NT or somewhere else, and many other factors. If the hand is a misfit you may not make much even with plenty of Zars in both hands.

 

IMO 4321 is fine for NT bidding with no fit and you make adjustments otherwise. But you don't know whether to make those adjustments at the point where you open the bidding. So it's better to start with 4321 and upgrade later.

[jjbrr]

If it were me, personally, I would stick with 4321 and focus on the play of the hand before anything else. Once you learn how to take tricks, then you can start making whatever changes to system and conventions and whatever else you want.

 

The ability to take lots of tricks will also give you better judgment in hand evaluation, which makes point-counting less important. This isn't exactly learning to walk before you run... it's more like learning to walk before you decide to pursue golf. Taking tricks is more or less unrelated to counting points, but it will make you more successful the better you get at it, regardless of what method you use.

 

But like others have said, you should do whatever keeps your interest, and I imagine I didn't answer the question you asked.

[bab9]

Is it legal to use Zar points?

 

Mostly yes. There is an issue with disclosure and with legal conventions that can get tricky. For instance, in the ACBL (and a lot of other places) you can't have the agreement to open constructively on the 1 level with fewer than 8 HCP. So if you have the agreement to open all 26+ ZAR hands with at least 4 cards in a major as 1M you may run foul of the rules on a hand like Axxxxxx Kxxxxx - -. That hand is 7 HCP but has a ZAR count of 7 + 3 + 13 + 7 = 30 which is a clear 1S opener. There are other places where certain bids (1nt, weak 2s, etc.) have restrictions over how wide a range, in HCP, one can agree to open or else what conventions one can use over it. So while you can primarily rely on Zar points if you want, convention regulation may mean you have to double check your HCP to make sure you stay legal.

I was not aware of the HCP restrictions on bids.

 

With the hand given, I thought it could still be opened under normal systems.

HCP - 7

Length S - 3

Length H - 2

 

Total points = 12. Many of the people I play with like to open on 12 instead of 13 points.

 

Does this mean there are restrictions on the HCP for psyc bids?

[bab9]

I am relatively new to bridge, and want to improve my game as quickly as possible.

 

I'll add that if you are relatively new to bridge then it is likely your efforts could better be directed to other fields than this. Learning good declarer play techniques, good defensive signaling/thinking, and learning what ever is "standard" bidding in your neck of the woods are probably all going to be more productive for you.

People I've played with have indicated the weakness in my game at present is in my bidding. Hence looking at Zar points to improve my evaluation of the hands.

 

Can you recommend my books or authors on good defensive signalling / thinking?

[blackshoe]

Does this mean there are restrictions on the HCP for psyc bids?

Nope. Well, unless you want to call "gross deviation from agreed strength" as a restriction. ;)

[bab9]

Thank you everyone for your replies and links.

 

Given that Zar points have been developed to help with your hand evaluation judgement, have there been systems for better defensive signalling? (currently playing McKenny or low encourage depending on my partner).

 

 

NickRW, is the system of fifths known by another name?

[bab9]

Does this mean there are restrictions on the HCP for psyc bids?

Nope. Well, unless you want to call "gross deviation from agreed strength" as a restriction. ;)

 

So with the hand Axxxxxx Kxxxxx - -, opening with 1S simply be thought of as a pysc bid? Or pysc bids not allowed at the 1 level?

[Mbodell]

Does this mean there are restrictions on the HCP for psyc bids?

Nope. Well, unless you want to call "gross deviation from agreed strength" as a restriction. :blink:

 

So with the hand Axxxxxx Kxxxxx - -, opening with 1S simply be thought of as a pysc bid? Or pysc bids not allowed at the 1 level?

It depends. If your agreement with your partner is that all your 1S bid promises 12+ HCP (that is 4321 HCP, no adjustments for length/shortness) and your partner would be shocked to see you open that hand then it may well be a psych. If your agreement is to open all 26+ ZAR hands and if we gave your partner that hand and said what bid would you expect your partner to make and she says "1S, spades is the longest suit and it has 26+ ZAR so it is obvious" then it isn't a psych, it is your agreement.

 

So it comes down to what you can agree to open (either: explicitly, through talking about rules like "open all 7 or fewer losing trick hands" or "open all 26+ ZAR hands"; or, implicitly, through you doing it enough with partner that your partner can expect it).

[jjbrr]

How new to bridge are you, bab9? Are you genuinely interested in improving your bridge or just interested in learning entertaining and obscure new gadgets?

[NickRW]

Thank you everyone for your replies and links.

 

Given that Zar points have been developed to help with your hand evaluation judgement, have there been systems for better defensive signalling? (currently playing McKenny or low encourage depending on my partner).

 

 

NickRW, is the system of fifths known by another name?

Click here to see some detailed stuff about hand valuation - particularly the page on card values for 3NT

 

Nick

[bab9]

How new to bridge are you, bab9? Are you genuinely interested in improving your bridge or just interested in learning entertaining and obscure new gadgets?

I have been playing regularly for about 2 years, and have played in a number of congresses.

[fred]

How new to bridge are you, bab9? Are you genuinely interested in improving your bridge or just interested in learning entertaining and obscure new gadgets?

I have been playing regularly for about 2 years, and have played in a number of congresses.

You are getting some good advice from posters like Mbodell, Nigelk, and jjbrr, but it sounds like you are not listening ;)

 

If being successful at bridge is an important goal for you, I would SERIOUSLY suggest that you not even think about Zar points (or anything else that is not 4321) at this stage of your career.

 

And not at the stage of your career a few months from now either!

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[bab9]

You are getting some good advice from posters like Mbodell, Nigelk, and jjbrr, but it sounds like you are not listening :)

 

If being successful at bridge is an important goal for you, I would SERIOUSLY suggest that you not even think about Zar points (or anything else that is not 4321) at this stage of your career.

Fred, I'm a bit perplexed by your comment. I have been listening to the advise from all the posters, and to date I have not used Zar points in any fashion. I posted the original question to see if it was worth my time looking further into them. By the looks of it, Zar points is just a method to help improve your judgement especially on boarderline calls.

 

In my last post I asked about defensive signalling. Might be best if I start a new thread.

[jjbrr]

Zar points will not improve your judgment. Improving your judgment will improve your judgment. There is no point-counting method that will make you a better bridge player, else everyone would be playing it.

 

Edit: And I know it won't matter whatsoever to you, but I've been playing much longer than 2 years, and I've never been bothered to learn Zar nor do I ever plan to. And I don't want to put words in Fred's mouth, but it sounds to me like he hasn't spent much time or energy worrying about it either, and he's been playing bridge longer than I've been alive. To me it should be clear that there are more important things to learn in bridge than this.

[hotShot]

The most important thing a beginner should work on is declarer play.

The ability to defend depends on your understanding of declarers play.

The ability to evaluate your hand, depend on your abilities in declarer play.

If you think you get much of the declarer play right, start working on your defense.

You are defending twice as much as declaring, so work on leads, signaling and the other aspects of defense.

 

Don't waste to much time on modifying your bidding system, there is not much sense in bidding contracts that you can't make because your declarer play is not good enough.

 

If you think that you are good enough at these, that you might want to study alternative evaluation methods.

 

Lets face it, there is a majority of player out there you can't properly evaluate distributional hands. Some even have decades of experience. I'm sure most of them usually don't post on this forum.

The usual 4321 point count with 321 extras for void,single and double is by far not good enough to deal with distributional hands.

Most experts have their instincts to rely on, their judgment works without numerical aid.

 

 

Zar-points are helpful for people who feel that their judgment with distributional hands is not good enough. They can learn from Zar-points that distributional hands are very strong. Once you have a feeling for it, forget about Zar-Points and trust your judgment.

[NickRW]

Zar-points are helpful for people who feel that their judgment with distributional hands is not good enough. They can learn from Zar-points that distributional hands are very strong. Once you have a feeling for it, forget about Zar-Points and trust your judgment.

Certainly what you and Fred and others have said in this thread about improving one's declarer play and then defensive technique are very true.

 

But your last paragraph is also very true and worth a lot of matchpoints to beginners and intermediates. I remember one hand when I was teaching my kids to play - I taught them about 4321 and all I knew about how to allow for fit - then one hand came up, 24hcp in the combined hands - good major fit - singleton in dummy and a worthless doubleton in hand - so decent ruffing value. Unfortunately the missing 16hcp were the four aces - one down in 4M. It was at that point that I decided that 4321 was actually complete rubbish on some hands and taught them other ways. Counting 6421 is not appropriate for all hands and it is not a panacea when you do - but if I paid $100 for every time it was wrong on suit contracts and got $100 for every time it was right - well I'd have quite a lot of cash in my pocket right now.

 

Nick

[vuroth]

I taught them about 4321 and all I knew about how to allow for fit - then one hand came up, 24hcp in the combined hands - good major fit - singleton in dummy and a worthless doubleton in hand - so decent ruffing value. Unfortunately the missing 16hcp were the four aces - one down in 4M. It was at that point that I decided that 4321 was actually complete rubbish on some hands...

Funny. I would have concluded that it's enough to bid reasonable games, and to not worry if you don't always make your contract.

 

Changing your system entirely works too, although I would guess you still go down sometimes in reasonable contracts.

 

0.02

 

V

[fred]

You are getting some good advice from posters like Mbodell, Nigelk, and jjbrr, but it sounds like you are not listening :lol:

 

If being successful at bridge is an important goal for you, I would SERIOUSLY suggest that you not even think about Zar points (or anything else that is not 4321) at this stage of your career.

Fred, I'm a bit perplexed by your comment. I have been listening to the advise from all the posters, and to date I have not used Zar points in any fashion. I posted the original question to see if it was worth my time looking further into them. By the looks of it, Zar points is just a method to help improve your judgement especially on boarderline calls.

My comment was a suggestion that you not even think about Zar Points.

 

Even though you have not used Zar Points in any fashion, you have been thinking about them. It sounds like you are still thinking about them.

 

If the reason for your thinking about Zar Points is because you think they are interesting, that's your business. But if you are thinking about Zar Points because you think they might help you become a better bridge player, I (and several other knowledgable posters) are telling you that you this:

 

Studying Zar Points now will actually contribute to making you a worse bridge player than you otherwise might have been. Quite possibly significantly worse.

 

So unless this is a purely intellectual exercise for you, just get it out of your head and pay attention to all the important things the other posters have mentioned.

 

I hope you are not perplexed anymore.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com