PFormaini Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Here is a fascinating puzzle I came across last evening..... Can you construct a full 52-card deal in which: 1. NORTH-SOUTH are cold for a GRAND SLAM in SPADES on any lead or defense. But by exchanging 1 card of NORTH'S with 1 card of WEST's... 2. EAST-WEST can now take 10 tricks in SPADES on defense? HINT #1: Neither SOUTH nor EAST is void in any suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 um sorry for nitpicking but looks like it's just a 10 trick swing. who is declarer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 HINT: one of the cards you switch is probably trump ace :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 um sorry for nitpicking but looks like it's just a 10 trick swing. who is declarer? No. It is a 23 trick swing. In case 1 - N-S take all 13 tricks. In case 2 - E-W take 10 tricks. That is a 23 trick swing from N-S tp E-W - all after a simple exchange of a single card from N to W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 well yes it's like there is a 40 day swing from 20 january to 20 february. EW took 0 tricks initially and 10 tricks later. how is that not a 10 trick swing? anyway, who is declarer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 well yes it's like there is a 40 day swing from 20 january to 20 february. EW took 0 tricks initially and 10 tricks later. how is that not a 10 trick swing? anyway, who is declarer? There is a 23-trick 'swing'. N-S take 23 fewer tricks between set-up 1 and set-up 2. If N-S took 13 tricks in the first and only 3 in the second - THAT would be a "10-trick difference'. 'Difference' applies to one particluar side. 'Swing' refers to the total number of tricks by both sides combined. Geeze - did IQs just suddenly drop sharply? :D ANyway, SOUTH is usually the declarer in puzzles of this type. And WEST the opening leader. That holds true here. For both set-ups. For Heaven's Sake people - stop nitpicking and solve the damn puzzle!1 It isn't THAT hard!!! :D Once you figure out how the Spades have to be satisfy both conditions, the rest kinda falls into place. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Not today, don't feel like it. Sorry Busy watching the NFC Championship game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 hi, my IQ has always been relatively low but nowadays I post more and people like mikeh post less. however, I am still relatively OK with basic math like subtraction. NS took 13 tricks in layout 1.EW took 10 tricks in layout 2, hence NS took 3. 13-3 is not 23. it is 10.http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=13-3 well OK I guess I was joking about being relatively OK with basic math, I had to look it up! I will think about your problem but it was not quite clear who was declarer. edit: on further review of your kind reply, I still don't understand how you arrive at the 23 figure. Looks like NS has lost 10 tricks and EW won 10 tricks. isn't that 20 then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 hi, my IQ has always been relatively low but nowadays I post more and people like mikeh post less. however, I am still relatively OK with basic math like subtraction. NS took 13 tricks in layout 1.EW took 10 tricks in layout 2, hence NS took 3. 13-3 is not 23. it is 10.http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=13-3 well OK I guess I was joking about being relatively OK with basic math, I had to look it up! I will think about your problem but it was not quite clear who was declarer. SOUTH is declarer both times. Another hint: East/WEST take the FIRST 10 tricks in set-up #2. In fact, it has to be that way. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb79 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 cayuga strikes again :D gwnn what op says is you made 13 in 1, down 10 next one so 13- (-10) =23just like if you were down 1, there were 14 trick swing :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 'Swing' refers to the total number of tricks by both sides combined. isn't that constant at 13, assuming no revokes? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 'Swing' refers to the total number of tricks by both sides combined. isn't that constant at 13, assuming no revokes? :PEnough stalling, people. Solve the problem!!!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Enough stalling, people. Solve the problem!!!!! :P Sounds more like a command than a general request... I think I solved this problem; but now I refuse to post the solution. In any case, it teaches nothing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Enough stalling, people. Solve the problem!!!!! :D Sounds more like a command than a general request... I think I solved this problem; but now I refuse to post the solution. In any case, it teaches nothing... "I think I solved the problem, but now I refuse to post....." I gotta remember that one the next time I take an exam and don;t know the answer!!!! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Let's see how many actual solutions are posted; by people other than you. I really wish no one bothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Let's see how many actual solutions are posted; by people other than you. I really wish no one bothers. We understand, shy. You don't have the necessary skills. That's OK. I'm sure someone else can work it out. After all, it was in the 'Intermediate' portion of the book. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I'm just thinking. Since "13 tricks" is an artificial wall, exactly how much is the swing? I mean, we see deals all the time where there are "17 tricks available." If you change this or that, you still end up with 13 tricks as to the artificial barrier. So, if you suddenly end up with only 3 tricks, you'd need a lot of tricks outside of the barrier to have a 23-trick swing. Actually, 26. That seems fairly easy to have happen. Simply put, either side has 13 tricks. The trouble of transportation is illusory. For the entry to, say, a 7-card suit headed by the, say, AKQ could be the stiff Jack, such that the Jack could either be simply a trick or an entry. Constructing, therefore, a deal with 26 tricks available would be easy. 26 seems like the absolute maximum, though, because there are only 26 cards with which to work. Making that 26-trick layout reduce to 3, though, seems really hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I'm just thinking. Since "13 tricks" is an artificial wall, exactly how much is the swing? I mean, we see deals all the time where there are "17 tricks available." If you change this or that, you still end up with 13 tricks as to the artificial barrier. So, if you suddenly end up with only 3 tricks, you'd need a lot of tricks outside of the barrier to have a 23-trick swing. Actually, 26. That seems fairly easy to have happen. Simply put, either side has 13 tricks. The trouble of transportation is illusory. For the entry to, say, a 7-card suit headed by the, say, AKQ could be the stiff Jack, such that the Jack could either be simply a trick or an entry. Constructing, therefore, a deal with 26 tricks available would be easy. 26 seems like the absolute maximum, though, because there are only 26 cards with which to work. Making that 26-trick layout reduce to 3, though, seems really hard. ken: Actually, once you work out what the trump suit has to be to satisfy each condition - and then proceed from there, it becomes remarkably easy to construct the deal. One merely has to ask oneself how South can lose so many tricks OUTSIDE the trump suit in the second example. There's really only 1 way to arrange for it to happen. But I agree - it is the initial set of conditions that is the tough nut to crack. :P But it is possible. And elegant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 well yes it's like there is a 40 day swing from 20 january to 20 february. EW took 0 tricks initially and 10 tricks later. how is that not a 10 trick swing? anyway, who is declarer? There is a 23-trick 'swing'. N-S take 23 fewer tricks between set-up 1 and set-up 2. Um, 23 fewer tricks? I don't think so. They took 13 tricks in setup 1. 23 fewer would be -10. They didn't take -10 tricks, they took 3 tricks. That is a swing of 10 tricks. If I play 1nt= I, declarer, took 7 tricks and my opponents took 6. If instead at the other table they play 1nt-1 declarer took 6 tricks and opponents took 7. That is a swing of 1 trick from declarer to defender. That isn't a swing of 13 tricks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 well yes it's like there is a 40 day swing from 20 january to 20 february. EW took 0 tricks initially and 10 tricks later. how is that not a 10 trick swing? anyway, who is declarer? There is a 23-trick 'swing'. N-S take 23 fewer tricks between set-up 1 and set-up 2. Um, 23 fewer tricks? I don't think so. They took 13 tricks in setup 1. 23 fewer would be -10. They didn't take -10 tricks, they took 3 tricks. That is a swing of 10 tricks. If I play 1nt= I, declarer, took 7 tricks and my opponents took 6. If instead at the other table they play 1nt-1 declarer took 6 tricks and opponents took 7. That is a swing of 1 trick from declarer to defender. That isn't a swing of 13 tricks!Mb: If YOUR SIDE takes 13 tricks in a setup and only 3 in another, THAT is a swing of 10 tricks. We are talking TOTAL TRICKS available to BOTH SIDES in the 2 setups - 26 total tricks - NOT 13. The designation of what the 'difference' is if N-S take 3 tricks instead of 13 - and if E-W take 10 tricks instead of N-S taking 13 CANNOT BE THE SAME THING. One is a 'difference'. The other is a 'swing'. If you think that N-S scoring 500 instead of 1500 (a difference of 1000) and N-S scoring 500 instead of EAST-WEST scoring 1500 (a swing of 2000) amount to the same thing, I wouldn;t want you on my Swiss Team! :lol: :lol: :lol: See the distinction I am trying to make now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Kuijt Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I think it is something like this [hv=n=sakqjhakqjdakqjca&w=s5432hdckqjt98765&e=st987ht987dt987c2&s=s6h65432d65432c43]399|300|[/hv] North, unaccountably misses the stone code 7NT, and ends in 7♠, Fortunately, spades break and 7♠ is cold. Switching the Spade Ace and deuce and North is in big trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFormaini Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I think it is something like this <!-- FULLHAND begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> Unknown </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AKQJ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AKQJ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AKQJ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> A </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> 5432 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KQJT98765 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> T987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> T987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> T987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> 2 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> 6 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> 65432 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> 65432 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> 43 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table><!-- FULLHAND end --> North, unaccountably misses the stone code 7NT, and ends in 7♠, Fortunately, spades break and 7♠ is cold. Switching the Spade Ace and deuce and North is in big trouble.No. How, exactly, do EAST-WEST make 10 tricks with SPADES as trump after that switch? They don't. Plus - SOUTH plays the hand. After this switch, WEST either leads a trump, whereafter SOUTH can pull trumps and win the rest, or else leads a CLUB, where Soth wins dummy's ACe of clubs and at least 3 more tricks, totaling at least 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 cayuga strikes again :lol: gwnn what op says is you made 13 in 1, down 10 next one so 13- (-10) =23just like if you were down 1, there were 14 trick swing :lol: Hey, this is fun: We are in 7 on a finesse:Setup 1: The King is onside, we make 13 tricks.Setup 2: The King is also onside, again we make 13 tricks.With no change in the cards, we have achieved a swing of 13 tricks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Cayuga is back! So if I am south, I make 13 tricks on one layout, but switching a card my opponents make 1 trick, how many tricks were swung? 1, 2, or 14? Gwnn what's that math problem website again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 One hand I took 10 tricks. The other table -LOL- EW took 3!!!! That's a THIRTEEN trick swing!!! (I was S). (don't claim to have written something original here bcos Mbodell 655 and jdonn also wrote similar stuff but it is still funny) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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