Would you double for take-out?

[Orla]

First hand at the table. Dealer opens 1♥ - P - 1NT - P - 2♥ - P - P - double

 

The re-opening/balancing double was made with this hand:

♠ X X X X X

♥ X

♦ X X

♣ A K X X X

 

That was the first and last board, because declarer told my partner that he was an idiot. :lol:

 

After leaving the table, I had a short discussion with my partner and said that, for me, a take-out double denies a 5-card suit. He disagrees.

 

When I said:

"I do not double with a 5-card suit" he replied:

"Like all hard and fast rules, it's a bad one, but you must do as you see fit"

(There is no arguing with an "expert" :blink: )

 

My question is:

Having doubled for take out with a 5 1 2 5 hand, what does partner do when I bid 3♦?

 

What do you think?

[nigel_k]

It would be good to know the vulnerability and form of scoring for this.

 

I tend to agree with your partner more than you. Doubling with a five card suit is fine and I would do it on many hands. I wouldn't do it very often with a 5-5 two suiter but your partner has an awkward problem as his spade quality is poor and it doesn't look right to pass either. Sometime the best percentage action is to make a takeout double with a small doubleton and hope that partner doesn't bid that suit, or if he does there is no better spot. So I think double is ok on your partner's hand.

[blackshoe]

What does the auction say?

 

"Partner, I have 5 or more hearts, at least 12 HCP (probably), and no longer suit." "I don't like your hearts much, and it looks like we don't have game." "I have a minimum opener and extra heart length." "Okay, fine, we'll play our part score in your suit."

 

Generally speaking, you don't want to let opponents play in a part score at the two level, particularly at matchpoints. This may give the player in the passout seat a problem. He should want to keep the auction open, but he may not have a hand suitable for the system. So he may have to improvise, as he did here.

[Orla]

Sorry, we were all non-vulnerable. New partner, playing SAYC, IMPs.

[peachy]

Sorry, we were all non-vulnerable. New partner, playing SAYC, IMPs.

This makes no difference - new partner, old partner, imps, mps.

 

I agree that your partner has to do something and Dbl is the best option this time.

[Orla]

The way I see it is:

Partner did not react to 1NT.

He knows I have at least 1 spade, giving us 6+spades.

What is the problem with showing that he has 5 spades at level 2, rather than risking a 4 2 "fit" at level 3?

I know from the bidding that he is not strong. So, we have quantity rather than quality.

The fact that responder has bid NT probably means that s/he has the minors....

 

I still do not get the double. :rolleyes:

[awm]

Double certainly does not deny a five-card suit. There are many hands with a five-card suit which should double; for example ♠Qxxx ♥x ♦Kxx ♣AKxxx is a very obvious double. Even with a five-card major, a hand like ♠xxxxx ♥x ♦KQx ♣KQxx is a reasonable double.

 

However, on this hand I would not choose to double. There are many problems with double, including: (1) five-card spade suit which can be bid at two-level (2) only two diamonds, without even an honor (3) general lack of values. No single one of these problems necessarily means that double is wrong, but combine all three of them and I think either pass (at vulnerable) or 2♠ (at non-vul) is a better choice.

[fred]

Orla - this is a judgment call.

 

DBL will be the winner if partner Passes for penalties and you beat it.

 

DBL will be the winner if it allows you to get to a good 3C contract.

 

You are right that DBL rates to be a (quite possibly big) loser if partner bids 3D.

 

DBL will be a complete disaster if partner passes for penalties and they make their contract.

 

There are other ways that DBL could win or lose.

 

Meanwhile 2S will also sometimes be a winner and sometimes be a loser. The same goes for Pass (and 3C I suppose, but that is really not a possible bid).

 

FWIW my judgment suggests that 2S rates to work better than DBL. That doesn't mean I am necessarily right :rolleyes:

 

In general I agree with you in that I tend to favor overcalling instead of DBLing when I have a 5-card major. However, your partner is right about hard and fast rules. For me this is certainly not a hard and fast rule since, in practice, there are plenty of situations where I will opt for DBL despite holding a 5-card major.

 

So I like your partner's thinking on "rules", but I disagree with his judgment in this particular case.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[shintaro]

:D

 

Is it not an 'old' adage that rules are for compliance by fools and as guidance for the wise :) :rolleyes:

[pretzalz]

The reason partner didn't double the first round is their is something wrong with his double. Either it is off-shape or understrength. In my experience the off-shape flaw is slightly more likely or at worst equally likely. For this reason, doubler's partner should strain not to bid 3m on a 4 card suit. Either with 43 or 44 or 54 in the minors bid 2N and with 3 spades and no five card suit bid 2S. On this basis doubler would expect to land on his feet doubling with the actual hand most of the time.

[kenberg]

If someone put a gun to my head and said that I must bid, I would bid 2♠. Partner might notice that I did not bid 2♠ on the first round and so He should not expect all that much of a suit. In particular, when the opponents go on to 3[♥ he need not be too quick to lead the K from Kx if he has a good diamond lead of his own. But really, I would leave this be in 2♥.

 

I have made doubles holding five cards in a major, but I think that action here has disaster written all over it. The usual situation where I might double holding a five card major is where their suit is spades, my five hearts are weak, and I have decent support for the minors. Maybe a 1=5=3=4 shape, strong clubs abd diamonds. Nothing works all of the time but I find double to be a winner there more often than not.

[P_Marlowe]

2S.

 

But a double in the reopening position usually showes only 4 spades

and at least 4 card in an unknown minor, i.e. if p bids 3D, I can pass

happily.

 

Treating this 5 card suit as a 4 carder is not the worst idea, but ... I

still would bid 2S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe