High level decision (2)

[bluecalm]

Final of major polish tournament series. Assume decent opps.

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sakj75hk743dkj82c]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

1♠* - 5♣ - dbl - pass

????

 

1♠ was (9)10-15hcp.

 

I think these are the possibilities :

pass

5♥

5NT

6♣

 

Thoughts ?

[helene_t]

Not sure what the difference between 5NT and 6♣ is. I go for 5NT.

[peachy]

I don't want to defend with this until it is 7CX.

6C = pick a slam. Maybe some competent bidding theorist could explain what the difference is between 5NT and 6C, they both ask partner to pick a slam as far as I understand.

[Hanoi5]

6♣, it should show the void. However, I'm a little concerned partner might have some clubs and I also don't like my opening: my hand is too strong for 1♠ 9-15.

[gwnn]

6♣ is pick-a-slam with 1st order control, 5NT is pick-a-slam without. I will bid 6♣ but I am not very happy about it, I feel a little light, but at least we will play the best strain almost always. Some people may say that 6♣ is a grand try with Ace/void and 5NT might contain 1st round control but I do not agree with them.

[lamford]

If partner's double is takeout, then 5NT or 6C seem sensible. We are not likely to bid a grand, so I don't think we gain much by showing the void.

 

However, this all depends on the methods. To what level is double takeout? And would pass be forcing at these colours? I shall make a note to discuss these questions with my regular partner, as I don't want to bid anything opposite a 2-4-4-3 five count with QTx of clubs.

[kayin801]

6♣, it should show the void. However, I'm a little concerned partner might have some clubs and I also don't like my opening: my hand is too strong for 1♠ 9-15.

100% agree here, but then again, partner knows we're limited so when we make this kind of bid they should be able to make a fairly informed decision.

[gwnn]

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

[lamford]

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

It is not everyone's style to play negative doubles up to 7H. We are not advised by the OP what double means and if it is penalties, then anything other than pass is wrong; if it is takeout then pass is wrong.

 

A couple of strong precision players that I know think that Pass should be forcing at adverse, and then double is takeout. But it would be nice to be told the style, especially as we were told what 1S meant. The WBF convention card goes out of its way to ask to what level negative doubles apply; the answers they had varied from 4H up to 7H at the World Championships in Geneva, where I happened to see all the convention cards.

[helene_t]

Pass forcing? Really? I thought that would be only over a strong 1♣ opening.

[lamford]

So what do you do with a hand that wants to defend 5C doubled?

[Fluffy]

pass? :P

 

its an easy 6♣ bid.

[jdonn]

What do you do when they open 1♣ and you have a hand that wants to defend 1♣X?

[Jlall]

5N, I don't really want to encourage 7 even though I have the first round control.

[MarkDean]

6♣ for me. About the best hand possible for the auction so far (among those not bidding a second suit).

[bluecalm]

Double is "cards" by agreement. Pass wouldn't be forcing.

Now I understand that this agreement may not be the best and doubler hand may not be a good doubling hand. So two more questions :

How would you like to play the double ? What is the example of minimum hand that want to double ?

 

In real hand the doubler had :

 

Q84

T952

AQ

K652

 

Is it too light a double ? What would you do playing YOUR style ? What would you do playing double as "cards" ? What would do you laying double as "negative" ?

If you pass, do you think partner should make a reopening double with his hand ? (or some maximum 5-4-3-1 hands ?).

 

Thanks for interesting discussion so far :P

[gnasher]

How would you like to play the double ? What is the example of minimum hand that want to double ?

As a hand which would have some hope of making game opposite a minimum. That is, double says that we have a plus score to protect, rather than that they're going down. The idea is to maximise accuracy when it's our hand, at the cost of missing a penalty when it's a partscore deal and they've overreached. Qxx Kxxx AQ xxxx would be an acceptable minimum.

In real hand the doubler had :

 

Q84

T952

AQ

K652

Holding four clubs, I'd be expecting opener to take it out almost all the time - we know his expected number of clubs is about 0.5. With the actual hand, I don't want him to do that, so I'd pass.

 

If opener has a maximum to go with his short clubs, he'll double and we'll pick up a large penalty. If he has a minimum, he'll pass, so we'll have missed a smaller penalty. However, if that's the case, we probably couldn't make anything more than a partscore, so we haven't lost anything against par.

 

On opener's actual hand, I'd reopen with a double.

[pooltuna]

lamford, why would partner want to x with a 5 count? is this the special olympics?

how about a 6 count

xxx

xxx

xxx

AQT9

[dake50]

Partner guesses me C-short and warns against higher with X. Do I have unusual enough to countermand that? NO.

[lamford]

In real hand the doubler had :

 

Q84

T952

AQ

K652

Holding four clubs, I'd be expecting opener to take it out almost all the time - we know his expected number of clubs is about 0.5. With the actual hand, I don't want him to do that, so I'd pass.

I would agree with all that, and would reopen with the hand opposite. In other words we are both playing negative doubles to a pretty high level.

 

"Cards" is a frequent agreement that partners like to have for these doubles, and I don't think it is precise enough, which is why we have the disaster that this hand clearly was.

[fred]

Just to add some excitement to an otherwise boring discussion of 5NT and 6C...

 

Unless I have missed something, there has not much said about expected shape(s) for 5NT and 6C. How many suits are suggested by these bids?

 

If 5NT suggests 3 suits, then you probably have a club void so maybe there is not much point in using 6C to show a club void that you could have shown with 5NT (unless maybe it is a "Serious 5NT" situation :rolleyes:). Maybe then:

 

- 6C is a grand slam try in spades with first round club control

- 5NT then 6S is a grand slam try in spades lacking first round club control

 

(There is more to making this playable than what is written above)

 

If 5NT could also suggest only two suits (presumably a montrous 6-4 hand that may or may not have a club void), you can't use 5NT then 6S as a grand slam try. In this case, if you think a grand slam try in spades is important to have, you still might want to consider using 6C for this purpose.

 

Yes I know it is obscure to think of catering to hands that are interested in 7S but it is also obscure to think of catering to monstrous 3-suited hands that are interested in 7whatever.

 

This is hard stuff that becomes much harder when you consider that everything is different if the opening bid was 1H or the overcall was 5D.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Jlall]

Fred, I'm not sure, but I'd like 2 ways to bid 3 suiters, based on how good my hand is. I could have a 21 count, or this 15 count, or whatever. It seems like I should differentiate. Probably something artificial to handle really good vs just good 2 suiters/1 suiters is good also though.

[lamford]

Fred, I'm not sure, but I'd like 2 ways to bid 3 suiters, based on how good my hand is. I could have a 21 count, or this 15 count, or whatever. It seems like I should differentiate. Probably something artificial to handle really good vs just good 2 suiters/1 suiters is good also though.

On this hand, dealer is known to have 10-15, so it might not be as necessary to show different strengths. One method a partner has suggested is that 5NT is takeout better diamonds or a grand slam try in spades without first round club control and 6C takeout better hearts or a grand slam try in spades with a first round club control. If you are 5-5, then you will bid your second suit at the appropriate level, but you may well be 5-(3 4) 1 or 5 (4 4) 0.

 

All of this sounds like a huge strain on memory for a rare sequence.

[Jlall]

Fred, I'm not sure, but I'd like 2 ways to bid 3 suiters, based on how good my hand is. I could have a 21 count, or this 15 count, or whatever. It seems like I should differentiate. Probably something artificial to handle really good vs just good 2 suiters/1 suiters is good also though.

On this hand, dealer is known to have 10-15, so it might not be as necessary to show different strengths.

Great point, and admittedly I did not notice this. I think 5C is a standout then.

 

All of this sounds like a huge strain on memory for a rare sequence.

 

Agree with this also.

[fred]

Fred, I'm not sure, but I'd like 2 ways to bid 3 suiters, based on how good my hand is. I could have a 21 count, or this 15 count, or whatever. It seems like I should differentiate. Probably something artificial to handle really good vs just good 2 suiters/1 suiters is good also though.

I wasn't being completely serious about recommending the interpretation I proposed. The main reason for my post was that I was a little surprised that there appeared to be such a strong consensus for what 5NT and 6C were all about (and little or no discussion about expected shapes for these bids).

 

I also didn't realize that 1S was a limited opening (oops). Now the very concept of making any grand slam try is silly so at first glance 6C seems obvious and free with this hand. After a second glance I am not so sure, but I will spare you the details because Lamford managed to wake me up with this wise statement:

 

All of this sounds like a huge strain on memory for a rare sequence.

 

I guess we all get a little Ken Rexford in us from time to time :P

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com