EBU White book 2010

[bluejak]

The point is Jeremy, that you think that a duplicate bridge club must provide a certain number of duplicate pairs sessions a year: other people, including me, think that a club that provides duplicate bridge ought to be allowed to join their national organisation as a duplicate bridge club, whether they play a certain number of pairs sessions a year or not.

[pran]

The point is Jeremy, that you think that a duplicate bridge club must provide a certain number of duplicate pairs sessions a year: other people, including me, think that a club that provides duplicate bridge ought to be allowed to join their national organisation as a duplicate bridge club, whether they play a certain number of pairs sessions a year or not.

There is a club in Norway, fully member of the Norwegian Bridge Federation that used to have their weekly club meeting day listed as one particular date of the year! According to rumours they met for bridge just on that single date each year.

 

NBF doesn't seem to ever having had any problem with that.

[Rossoneri]

This is kind of sidetracking from the original topic of this thread, maybe we should move this elsewhere?

[jallerton]

why not distribute hard copies to clubs rather than expecting every TD to do that? I would even be happy to pay some reasonable fee for one, as I did for my lawbook.

 

There are two reasons for this. The first is that some will be more reluctant than you to pay for a copy. With previous OBs they have also gone to the tournament players as well as clubs and directors. The second is that it is easier to keep it up to date in online form. The Laws being worldwide change only every 10 years. The OB typically has some minor modification each year.

All the laptops taken by directors to EBU congresses have electronic copies of both White and Orange Books on them and I think that many clubs will find it easier to use it this way(searcnig, for example, being quicker and simpler) if they use a computer for scoring.

So what is the primary reason for ceasing to print the Orange and White Books?

 

1. The EBU Board and/or L&EC thinks that these publications are better in electronic form.

 

2. The EBU Board considers this to be a good way to save money.

 

3. Other (please specify).

[Finch]

I think it's more that they consider the incremental costs associated with printing copies for everyone outweigh the benefits.

 

I would guess that most people who received the full EBU white book previously never read all of it. Some of those that did might consider somewhat fairer that they pay for their own printing of it, as it's for their own benefit, rather than the EBU commit to printing lots of unwanted copies.

 

There was some discussion about whether the L&E would print and send a copy to anyone who specifically requested one.

[bluejak]

The suggestion is that the EBU prints and sells the White book. I, for one, would happily pay for a copy. I am completely unconvinced that it is better in electronic form. And no, it is nothing to do with whether I have read it through: it is a work of reference: when I need it I want it to be there.

 

I am getting less and less convinced by the "easier to update" argument. In practice, no-one has an up-to-date Orange book. I wonder whether the EBU has made the right decision here, and several people I have talked to have shown worry about this approach.

[jeremy69]

So what is the primary reason for ceasing to print the Orange and White Books?

 

1. The EBU Board and/or L&EC thinks that these publications are better in electronic form.

 

2. The EBU Board considers this to be a good way to save money.

 

3. Other (please specify).

 

1. Yes because of previously mentioned items such as searching and availability in up to date form

2. Yes. The cost of printing is significant and unlikely to be offset by sales.

it is a work of reference: when I need it I want it to be there.

I can recall from work having a number of software manuals that the company concerned switched to only producing electronically and initially because we were used to it the printed copy was missed but most got used to using it on line and those who didn't/wouldn't/couldn't printed their own.

 

In practice, no-one has an up-to-date Orange book.

 

I do.

[campboy]

it is a work of reference: when I need it I want it to be there.

I can recall from work having a number of software manuals that the company concerned switched to only producing electronically and initially because we were used to it the printed copy was missed but most got used to using it on line and those who didn't/wouldn't/couldn't printed their own.

As I have pointed out before, the comparison is specious. The only time you are going to need a software manual is when you are already sitting at a computer, so the electronic copy is fine. When you need the OB, on the other hand, it is unlikely that a computer is available.

[hrothgar]

The suggestion is that the EBU prints and sells the White book. I, for one, would happily pay for a copy. I am completely unconvinced that it is better in electronic form. And no, it is nothing to do with whether I have read it through: it is a work of reference: when I need it I want it to be there.

 

I am getting less and less convinced by the "easier to update" argument. In practice, no-one has an up-to-date Orange book. I wonder whether the EBU has made the right decision here, and several people I have talked to have shown worry about this approach.

Has anyone looked into print on demand options in the UK?

 

One relatively simple option would be that

 

1. The EBU publishes one version of the White book in a format commonly used by a print on demand shot.

 

2. Anyone who wants a hard copy can wander down to Lulu, Kinkos, whatever and have a copy printed. Individuals who don't have convenient access to one of these shops can arrange to have a hard copy mailed to them.

 

3. If some enlightened soul sees an opportunity to make a quick buck, they could even self fund a small print run and try to turn a profit.

 

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

[jeremy69]

As I have pointed out before, the comparison is specious.

 

The fact that you have said it before doesn't make it any more or less valid. You may only look at a software manual when you are next to the screen but that does not mean everyone does.

In some clubs and at some tournaments there will be easy online access to the White or Orange Book. If I am telephoned for a ruling then I can have both on my screen more or less immediately. In clubs where there is no easy access it maybe necessary to print one but that will be an improvement over having the last printed copy (in the case of the OB 2006) and adding the later additions by hand or perhaps printing them separately.

 

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

 

Oh yes and how will you manage the copyright problems related to taking someone else's work, printing it without permission and selling it?

[mjj29]

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

 

Oh yes and how will you manage the copyright problems related to taking someone else's work, printing it without permission and selling it?

I assume the suggestion is that the EBU should release the OB and WB under a suitable licence such that this is possible. Given they aren't selling copies of either it's hardly cutting into their profits...

 

I see no reason why the EBU should not release it under CC-by-nd[0] or CC-by-nc-nd[1]. Personally I think they should release it under a completely open licence like CC-by-sa[2], but I can see others might be uncomfortable with that.

 

Matt

 

0. Redistributable No-Derivatives http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/

1. Non-Commercial No-Derivatives http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

2. Redistributable/modifiable share-alike http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

[hrothgar]

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

 

Oh yes and how will you manage the copyright problems related to taking someone else's work, printing it without permission and selling it?

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

 

It would be trivial for the organization to release the White Book / Orange Book / whatever using a Creative Commons license and explicitly grant third parties permission to create / sell copies of the book while reserving those rights involving modifying the content.

 

I tried to convince the ACBL that they should do the same with the Encyclopedia of Bridge. (Use the existing content to seed a bridge related wiki...)

 

I'd argue that the same should be done with the various World Championship Books. (I'd gladly contribute money to the WBF, Kokish, or whomever owns the copyrights to have these books made available for free online). I'm guessing that the margins would be quite a bit better than trying to make any kind of profit selling small batches of hard copy...

[campboy]

As I have pointed out before, the comparison is specious.

 

The fact that you have said it before doesn't make it any more or less valid. You may only look at a software manual when you are next to the screen but that does not mean everyone does.

Did I say people only look at software manuals when they are next to a screen? No, of course I didn't; I have no idea what some people may or may not do (after all, mjj29 has read the Orange Book :P ). What I said was that the only occasion on which one needs a software manual is when one is at a computer. Some people may prefer to look things up when they are away from the screen (I prefer a hard copy myself, and will use my copy of the OB in preference to the electronic version even if I am only looking something up to quote here), but unless they have chosen a particularly tedious specialist subject for Mastermind they are not going to put that information to use until they get back to the computer, so there is no need.

[dburn]

In practice, no-one has an up-to-date Orange book.

I do. I keep it on my mobile phone, so that I don't actually need a computer or a printed copy of the Orange Book when I want to look something up in the Orange Book.

[jeremy69]

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

Yes it does. It publishes copies of its regulations and commentary on the laws electronically and plans to continue to do so.

 

Of course people have the right to prefer to keep their copy where they want, be it on their computer, mobile phone, wii or in printed form. If they prefer a printed copy then they print it! In due course no doubt it will make its way onto electronic book readers but there will probably still be those who prefer it on alternative media. The idea of giving the content and copyright to someone to make copies in order to ensure that many have out of date copies seems bonkers to me. That was the problem with the old White Book.

In addition, of course, it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

[StevenG]

In addition, of course, it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

Does that mean that I, as an individual who is interested in these things, will no longer be able to download copies of these publications for my personal use?

[blackshoe]

If it does, I'll have to start adding to any posts I make here regarding incidents in the EBU:

Regrettably, I am not privy to EBU regulations, so cannot say what the ruling should be under those regulations.

 

The Australian Bridge Director's Association has at its web site a forum, one section of which is restricted (for posting) to paid up members. I can't post there, and I'm not going to join ABDA just so I can. Nor will I join the EBU just to get access to the OB.

[mjj29]

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

Yes it does. It publishes copies of its regulations and commentary on the laws electronically and plans to continue to do so.

 

Of course people have the right to prefer to keep their copy where they want, be it on their computer, mobile phone, wii or in printed form. If they prefer a printed copy then they print it! In due course no doubt it will make its way onto electronic book readers but there will probably still be those who prefer it on alternative media. The idea of giving the content and copyright to someone to make copies in order to ensure that many have out of date copies seems bonkers to me. That was the problem with the old White Book.

 

It's not clear to me that the current licencing permits printing copies for your own use or for club use. In general English law does not permit copying for the purposes of format shifting. In fact, I can't see anything which permits you to keep electronic copies other than the implied licensing from "Click here for a fully updated version.".

 

In addition, of course,  it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

 

I think this would be a seriously bad move. I know the EBU is keen for clubs to affiliate, but there are many people who use the EBU regulations and interpretations as a reference who are not EBU-affiliated, people in other jurisdictions as well as for personal use. The EBU is far more likely to increase it's influence by making these publications as widely available as possible and allowing people to modify their regulations for use else where. A permissive copyright licence seems to be the best way to do that. A copy-left (for those who know the term) licence such as CC-by-sa would be even better.

 

In addition, you say "we are in the publishing business - publishing electronically", however, the point that was being made is that they aren't making money from publishing (by selling copies), so there should be no objection to other people doing that.

 

Matt

[jallerton]

So what is the primary reason for ceasing to print the Orange and White Books?

 

1. The EBU Board and/or L&EC thinks that these publications are better in electronic form.

 

2. The EBU Board considers this to be a good way to save money.

 

3. Other (please specify).

 

1. Yes because of previously mentioned items such as searching and availability in up to date form

2. Yes. The cost of printing is significant and unlikely to be offset by sales.

Re: 1. An electronic version is certainly useful for searching for specific words, but a paper version is more useful for reading about particular topics, particularly if you happen to be at a bridge venue, as most TDs tend to be when asked to give a ruling.

 

Re: 2. How much did it actually cost the EBU to print the last White Book? How much does that work out to be per copy?

[gnasher]

Re: 2. How much did it actually cost the EBU to print the last White Book? How much does that work out to be per copy?

It seems to me that another relevant question is "How much would it cost someone to print their own copy from the electronic version?"

[jeremy69]

Does that mean that I, as an individual who is interested in these things, will no longer be able to download copies of these publications for my personal use?

 

If you are a member of the EBU then yes. If you are not then no.

 

I think this would be a seriously bad move. I know the EBU is keen for clubs to affiliate, but there are many people who use the EBU regulations and interpretations as a reference who are not EBU-affiliated, people in other jurisdictions as well as for personal use. The EBU is far more likely to increase it's influence by making these publications as widely available as possible and allowing people to modify their regulations for use else where.

 

Yes the EBU are keen for clubs to affiliate. for them to do so they must perceive advantages for themselves and/or their members. You can't have it both ways. If an organisation is to be able to fund the production of something like the White Book which takes a long time to prepare and produce it needs resources to do so. The members pay for those resources. To then give away the content to those who choose not to contribute but to allow others to do so is neither fair nor good business IMO. If another NBO asked for a copy, however, then it would be given willingly.

[hrothgar]

If an organisation is to be able to fund the production of something like the White Book which takes a long time to prepare and produce it needs resources to do so. The members pay for those resources. To then give away the content to those who choose not to contribute but to allow others to do so is neither fair nor good business IMO. If another NBO asked for a copy, however, then it would be given willingly.

Goods characterized by a high fixed cost and a low, or even zero, variable cost, have always presented problems for market economies.

 

Set price equal to marginal cost is definitional for efficient asset allocation in a competitive market. This would suggest that the price for downloaded copy of the White Book should be set at zero, since the incremental cost of producing / distributing an additional unit is an infinitesimal.

 

At the same time, this type of pricing scheme creates a "free rider" problem. Significant numbers of people will choose to consume the good in question without contributing towards the fixed of production. In turn, this means that the society will invest in fewer of these projects than it would otherwise.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Personally, I prefer models in which groups of consumers band together, fund the fixed cost of development, and then distribute the asset for free. This is an increasingly popular method to fund content that gets distributed on the internet. Its used by everyone from National Public Radio to "The Guild".

 

I would argue that membership organizations which, in theory, are trying to promote bridge have a vested interest in distributing content for free.

[mjj29]

I would argue that membership organizations which, in theory, are trying to promote bridge have a vested interest in distributing content for free.

I concur and I think it is an example that the EBU should set.

 

Jeremy, if your suggestion does represent EBU plans, who should I contact to make an official request on the matter?

 

Matt

[jeremy69]

Jeremy, if your suggestion does represent EBU plans, who should I contact to make an official request on the matter?

 

An official request for what? If you mean giving content away for free you are welcome to try but I guess you will be banging your head against a brick wall.

You could contact the General Manager.

It will take a while I guess but steadily content will be moved so it is accessible to all members and clubs only. This has been discussed for a while prior to P2P as you might imagine. Of course anyone who plays at a club which is unaffiliated and can't easily join any other way can choose to be come a direct member for approximately the same price as previously. That will give access.

 

Bottom line though is that whilst people can argue or pontificate on economic theory to their hearts content, assert that it should all be free, property is theft etc some content will only be available to those who contribute and are members. The same applies to playing in a congress. You want to play then you join. You won't join then you can't.

 

This would suggest that the price for downloaded copy of the White Book should be set at zero,

 

It is always provided you join the organisation.

[bluejak]

It will be sad if after all these years of encouraging people in other countries to use the White book they are unable to solely to stop people in unaffiliated clubs getting hold of a copy, when we know perfectly well that the number of people in unaffiliated clubs who want an EBU White book is roughly zero.

 

Yes, I know you said they would accede to a request from an NBO, but I am talking people, not organisations.