EBU White book 2010

[mjj29]

What you and the committee have done here is to define the White Book as a "benefit", which you feel that making available for free to all would make the whole organisation poorer for it.

 

The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge.

 

So I ask you, how is limiting a commentary on the laws of bridge to members only going to help your cause of promoting the game of duplicate bridge if non-members who have a casual interest to just see the laws can't even get to see a commentary which would help them in understanding?

 

And even so, how would a non-affiliated club looking at the White Book make the EBU poorer for it? Surely you are not going to tell me that the bandwidth from downloading the pdf file is going to net EBU a loss?

 

On the other hand, the cost of producing the White Book is already a sunk cost, and since the White Book is meant for better understanding of the laws, surely making it available to non-members can hardly cost anything.

 

What I have seen representative of your replies is an attitude that is best outlined as: You have not affiliated with us so we are going to take away everything that we think will be of any benefit to you. Us vs Them. I do not know if this is reflective of the real situation, but this is certainly what I am getting from you. You claim that your views representative of the committee, which I last read in the EBU magazine as trying to promote "universal membership".

hear hear

[jallerton]

I find the updating principle worrying.  Currently it means that no-one seems to have an up-to-date Orange book, as I have discovered recently in Deva BC and the Ranked Masters.

 

As for every TD at EBU Congresses having Orange and White books on their computer, sadly, this is just not true.

You may be right but that isn't what I said. All the EBU computers that go to congresses have had(as of last week) the new White Book put on them.

 

Bluejak is still correct. At an EBU event yesterday, the TD came up to my partner to ask what a particular section of the Orange Book said, explaining that the version of Orange Book on his computer was not the most up-to-date one.

 

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not. It was the 2006 version, that being the latest version which has been properly published in book format.

[gordontd]

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not.

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around, so I've left it at the club and intend to rely on the online version on my iPhone.

[bluejak]

Now that these publications are so valuable, I guess the editors, contributors and reviewers will all be looking for a significant increase in their financial compensation.

Best idea I have heard so far! :D

 

:)

 

Being a member of an affiliated club makes you a member of the EBU, but if you want to play in congresses without being a member of an affiliated club then you need to join the EBU directly. (I have had to do this since the EBU has not allowed my club to affiliate.)

Same for my wife, the County Chairman of Merseyside & Cheshire BA and an EBU Panel TD.

 

:)

 

Maybe some thought needs to be given to what affiliated means. I think it means joining the organsation. If you don't then you don't get the benefits. You may want to characterise this as "revenge"  but as far as I'm aware any club that decided not to affiliate and changes it's mind now or in the future is only too welcome but it is a given that membership benefits are for members.

Of course that is true. But what is not a given is that everything the EBU does is a "membership benefit". The EBU has a responsibility to bridge in England, and, in my view, a responsibility to bridge in other countries as well. So decisions have to be made as to what parts of EBU business are membership business, and what parts are business as the National Bridge Organisation in England, and what parts are business as a constituent member of the European Bridge league and the World Bridge Federation.

[jeremy69]

Bluejak is still correct. At an EBU event yesterday, the TD came up to my partner to ask what a particular section of the Orange Book said, explaining that the version of Orange Book on his computer was not the most up-to-date one.

 

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book. Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book? No, of course not. It was the 2006 version, that being the latest version which has been properly published in book format.

 

I was at an event recently where there was a problem involving the law. The director still had a copy of the 1997 Laws because he had marked them all up and had not had time to do the same (whatever that meant) for the 2007 book which was languishing at his home so it wasn't whether he had an online version or not. He was a touch unlucky it was something that had been changed from one version to the next.

 

As far as the OB is concerned whichever version he had the last printed one was in 2006 although there is a supplement updated each year thus far with the changes or you can download a whole updated one.

There is certainly an issue which needs addressing with a TD turning up for an event without the necessary documentation in whatever form.

 

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around,

 

Also worrying because my version is 225 pages of A4 which is quite long enough. Am I missing some?

[gordontd]

There is certainly an issue which needs addressing with a TD turning up for an event without the necessary documentation in whatever form.

Since you had informed us that all EBU scoring computers had updated versions of both the Orange & White books, I think it's reasonable for a TD to expect to be able to use those.

 

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around,

 

Also worrying because my version is 225 pages of A4 which is quite long enough. Am I missing some?

 

I misremembered - my version goes up to page 477, but that's because I reformatted it to A5 thinking I could staple it into a book. Obviously far too thick for that, and even at only 239 pages of A4 too thick to go into a TD's pocket.

[jeremy69]

Since you had informed us that all EBU scoring computers had updated versions of both the Orange & White books, I think it's reasonable for a TD to expect to be able to use those.

 

I believed they had but judging from what you say this is not the case. I'll check by when this can be sorted out.

[jeremy69]

It has already been mentioned that in practice, non-affiliated clubs are not even looking at the White Book, hence they not obtaining any benefit for all practical purposes.

 

Happy to believe that few clubs affiliated or otherwise look at either the OB or WB on anything like a regular basis although if sometihng goes wrong it may be a port of call.

 

What you and the committee have done here is to define the White Book as a "benefit",

 

Not exactly. It will be the board not the L&E that decides but if you assume the board then Yes.

 

The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge.

 

Yes. come and join the EBU (club or player). We believe we can provide a regulated, well run game and wish as many people as possible to have this good experience.

So some will scoff at this, others may wish to remain in the badlands rather than coming on board. The unregulated game will wither on the vine and all will be better off. It may, of course, not work exactly like that but promoting the game does not involve giving away the family silver, orange or white to all and sundry.

 

So I ask you, how is limiting a commentary on the laws of bridge to members only going to help your cause of promoting the game of duplicate bridge if non-members who have a casual interest to just see the laws can't even get to see a commentary which would help them in understanding?

 

See the laws anytime you want. Join the national organisation and have experts help with their interpretation.

 

And even so, how would a non-affiliated club looking at the White Book make the EBU poorer for it? Surely you are not going to tell me that the bandwidth from downloading the pdf file is going to net EBU a loss?

 

On the other hand, the cost of producing the White Book is already a sunk cost, and since the White Book is meant for better understanding of the laws, surely making it available to non-members can hardly cost anything.

 

 

It is not a matter of money or perhaps it would be clearer if I said IT'S NOT A MATTER OF MONEY

[campboy]

So it is for the good of the game if clubs which decide not to affiliate (or who are refused affiliation) "wither on the vine", is it? The sentiments expressed in that post disgust me. If we claim to be promoting bridge we need to nurture bridge clubs and bridge players (and potential bridge players), whether they are affiliated to the EBU or not. Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

[Vampyr]

Limiting access to the White Book is childish and disgusting, but access to the Orange book is essential for foreigners and future EBU members if they want to participate in a congress. The information contained therein is information that they need in advance. Someone please tell me that the geniuses on the EBU board are not considering cutting off access to the Orange Book.

 

 

Also... just wondering, if it is "not a matter of money" then what is the purpose of limiting access to those who are paying the EBU?

[jnichols]

Of course it's a matter of money. The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money. That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic. :)

[WellSpyder]

Of course it's a matter of money.  The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money.  That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic.  :)

Isn't this really just a question of perspective? The EBU is not in the business of trying to make money so in that sense the issue is not about money. But it does have an objective of supporting duplicate bridge in England and to do that it needs to survive! The previous model of funding the EBU was felt not to be viable in the long run - which presumably means that at some point it was going to find it did not have enough money to do what it felt it needed to do. Trying to sort out that non-viability is, of course, about money...

[Blue Uriah]

Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

It sounds like you're arguing in favour of downloading free music, buying pirate DVDs or not paying your TV license. Once the content is produced, it costs nothing to make one additional copy so what harm can it do?

[jeremy69]

Limiting access to the White Book is childish and disgusting

 

Come on! Don't mince words. Tell us what you really think. I understand that you disagree with the idea and believe that anyone who does not agree with you, including me, deserves the above epithets(along with torture involving hot tongs) but I'm sure I've told you a million times not to exaggerate! :rolleyes:

[jeremy69]

Of course it's a matter of money. The entire Pay to Play concept would never have come about if it wasn't a matter of money. That is clear even from this side of the Atlantic.

 

P2P came about as it was thought that the existing model of membership had ceased to work in an effective manner and was not sustainable. Clearly finance has something to do with this.

 

Publication of the White Book, Orange Book or any other book is not primarily a financial issue but I expect from a distance of 4000 miles or so you will have a better and more authoritative perspective.

[campboy]

Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

It sounds like you're arguing in favour of downloading free music, buying pirate DVDs or not paying your TV license. Once the content is produced, it costs nothing to make one additional copy so what harm can it do?

I do not advocate any of those things.

 

There are two important differences here.

 

Firstly I am arguing that the EBU should make the OB freely available, but if they choose not to, that is their right and I would not approve of people making unauthorised copies.

 

Secondly, the companies which produce DVDs and CDs are profit-driven businesses; there is no reason why they should wish to benefit anyone outside of their customer base. On the other hand, "The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge."

[Blue Uriah]

Sorry, just that when you used the phrase 'it costs nothing' you sounded very much like people who do those things I mentioned earlier. The Orange Book doesn't cost nothing and the 1000th copy being free doesn't change the fact that the 1st copy involved a lot of hard work - work which was paid for ultimately by the EBU members.

[paulg]

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

 

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

 

Paul

[jeremy69]

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

 

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

 

Both BGB for the Gold Cup/Silver Plate and the Welsh Bridge Union in general use the Orange Book in its entirety and no action will be taken by the L&E to make either of their collective lives more difficult.

[Vampyr]

the 1st copy involved a lot of hard work - work which was paid for ultimately by the EBU members.

I suppose it was paid for in a sense... the work is, after all, undertaken by volunteers.

[Vampyr]

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

 

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

 

Both BGB for the Gold Cup/Silver Plate and the Welsh Bridge Union in general use the Orange Book in its entirety and no action will be taken by the L&E to make either of their collective lives more difficult.

The Orange Book also needs to be available for foreigners and English people who are not yet EBU members who are considering entering a congress. I am sure that the board was never considering keeping the OB concealed from non-members.

[jallerton]

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book.  Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book?  No, of course not.

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around, so I've left it at the club and intend to rely on the online version on my iPhone.

Section 121.7 of the EBU White Book still requires EBU TDs to have access to a (presumably up-to-date version of) the White Book itself.

 

Bad news for diligent TDs such as Gordon: your EBU White Book is already out of date! According to the EBU website, the White Book (published April 2010) was amended again in August 2010.

 

Does anyone know what changes were made between the April and August versions?

[RMB1]

David does. :)

 

I downloaded a copy from the EBU website at Brighton but David said it was not the latest version.

 

There is a change relating to tournament organisers and (affiliated) EBU clubs.

 

I have felt forced to drag around my laptop to all EBU events so I can refer to the (nearly) latest Orange and White books. Hence the posts elsewhere on BBF about Kindles.

[NickRW]

Some of this thread seems to be from Alice in Wonderland.

 

At a typical club, affiliated or not:

 

1) The club does not own its own premises. There is no phone let alone broadband access. There is no computer.

 

2) The director is an unpaid volunteer and probably an untrained individual just trying to see that the club gets a 'good/fair game' as best as he/she is able.

 

3) There will be either a rule book or a copy of David Stevenson's "yellow" book - or both. There will not be an up to date printed copy of the orange book, though there may be an old one and, if there is a copy of the white book at all, it is way out of date.

 

4) The club will probably play to approximately level 3 standards - but the club has no explicit policy on this.

 

5) The members of the club will have heard of the Orange book, but most have not read or consulted it. They may not have even heard of the White book.

 

Therefore, for the EBU to consider that these publications are a service to its member clubs is, as far as the majority of clubs are concerned, living in cloud cuckoo land. And making the Orange and White books available to members only is an exercise in pen pushing with no visible upside as they aren't in use in any meaningful sense anyway.

 

Nick

[jeremy69]

Therefore, for the EBU to consider that these publications are a service to its member clubs is, as far as the majority of clubs are concerned, living in cloud cuckoo land. And making the Orange and White books available to members only is an exercise in pen pushing with no visible upside as they aren't in use in any meaningful sense anyway.

 

 

To judge by the correspondence that I receive both books are in use in many clubs. A tangerine book has been produced and this is for clubs who found the OB too long and complex for club bridge. It is about 1/4 of the length. I would not expect clubs to consult the white book all that often but it is intended as something helpful for members and affiliated clubs and offers guidance to those members and clubs when they need to interpret the law.

 

At a typical club, affiliated or not:

 

1) The club does not own its own premises. There is no phone let alone broadband access. There is no computer.

 

All the clubs I play at do have both computers and an internet connection. Even where this is not the case and I am sure there are village halls where this is true a laptop without internet connection can be used for both scoring and consulting whichever book is required.

 

3) There will be either a rule book or a copy of David Stevenson's "yellow" book - or both. There will not be an up to date printed copy of the orange book, though there may be an old one and, if there is a copy of the white book at all, it is way out of date.

4) The club will probably play to approximately level 3 standards - but the club has no explicit policy on this.

 

5) The members of the club will have heard of the Orange book, but most have not read or consulted it. They may not have even heard of the White book.

 

And a law book will probably be all that is required on most occasions

 

The OB or TB will only be needed if someone wants to dispute what is allowed or alertable and I reckon that will be rare in a club session.

 

Members have no need to go near a white book unless they wish to. It is principally for directors.

 

Offering help and guidance is one of the things that the EBU should be doing for clubs and members and the Laws and Ethics Committee try to assist with both booklets, email advice, electronic newsletters to clubs and also at tournament level to appeal chairman and are happy to consider any other constructive suggestion in this area.

 

To whom they are available is an area that has already been extensively covered. At present they are available to all. Some documents may be restricted to members in the future but what and when is yet to be decided. It's likely that to aid updating and also ease cost most copies will continue to be electronic.