A 2C sequence

[Coelacanth]

Consider the following uncontested auction. Assume None vul at Matchpoints if that matters.

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♣

 

2♣ is "standard", strong artificial and forcing

2♦ is temporizing; there is no "negative" bid available

2♥ is what you'd expect, a strong hand with primary hearts

3♣ is nominally a real suit, but limited by the failure to bid 3♣ directly over 2♣

 

You are the 2♣ bidder. I may give the actual hand in a later post, but I wanted to see some discussion of the following questions first. I'm looking for opinions on the "standard" meanings of these bids absent prior discussion, as well as any specialized treatments anyone plays.

 

(1) What would a 3♠ bid by you mean? Natural, showing a second suit (perhaps 5611)? An attempt to reach 3NT missing a ♦ control? A cuebid showing ♣ support? Or something else?

 

(2) Similar questions for a 3♦ bid.

 

(3) Would you assume a jump to 4♦ to be a splinter raise of clubs, a big red two-suiter, or something else?

 

(4) Assume your ♣ holding includes the Ace and Queen. What's the worst ♣ holding your partner should hold? Specifically, must he have the king, or would he bid this way with, say, JTxxxx? Must he have a 5-card suit, or might he have KJxx?

 

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

[jjbrr]

Assuming 3♣ is natural and not artificial with very few points, I believe most play this:

 

1) Natural, could be 4 or 5♠ with longer ♥. Partner's 3♣ could easily be bid on 4135 or 4225 or any 4xx6 shape, and thus we need to be able to find 4-4 major fits. Obviously to bid this way, you must understand that 3N will either be played by the weak hand or bypassed, so it suggests 10+ cards in the majors or a desire to raise clubs later.

 

2) Natural. Similar argument.

 

3) I would assume splinter for ♣ as long as 3♦ would be forcing.

 

4) 3♣ doesn't promise anything about suit quality, but it should be 5+. Like I said, 4135 shapes would bid 3♣ regardless of the quality of the ♣ suit.

[Fluffy]

I think 3♠ nad 3♦ are nat or semi-nat, they could be bid on 3 cards often with 5332 with no stopper for example.

 

Opening 2♣ when you have a 2-suiter is not normal, so if you have a real 2 suiter you probably have extras enough to bid again over 3NT.

 

4♦ is splinter

 

♣AQ doesn't mean partner must have the King, he can have ♣J10xxxx and nothing else and he has no bid avaible.

[peachy]

This is a SAYC and 2/1 forum. In SAYC, 3C is double negative.

 

If you don't have a direct negative or a second round bid to show negative, then the meaning of 3C depends on what a direct 3C would be. Whatever 3C is, it denies 3+ card heart support.

 

New suit by opener is natural with reluctance to bid NT or rebid hearts (likely because the 4th suit is uncontrolled or because opener thinks we have slam somewhere).

 

Difficult to grope in the dark without agreements but when there are no agreements, assume natural.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 natural, 4 card suit is enough

#2 see #1

#3 splinter, see #1, since a new suit is forcing and natural,

4D is 1 level above, so this is a splinter

#4 ..., I guess an arbitary 5 card suit is sufficent, if you req.

too much, partner may have problems finding a bit.

If he is bal., he can always bid 2NT, but if he is unbal.

with a single in your suit, what is he supposed to bid?

Similar 2S over 2H could be just based on a 4 card suit.

To summarize: If you bypass a suit, it should be a 5 carder,

if you bid the cheapest suit xxxx is sufficient.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Coelacanth]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

 

Had I been sure that partner would read 4♦ as a splinter, I would have done that, but I didn't want to introduce any ambiguity into the auction.

 

The actual hand was

 

♠AQ

♥AKQJxx

♦9

♣AQTx

 

and I raised partner's natural 3♣ to 4♣.

[straube]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

 

Had I been sure that partner would read 4♦ as a splinter, I would have done that, but I didn't want to introduce any ambiguity into the auction.

 

The actual hand was

 

♠AQ

♥AKQJxx

♦9

♣AQTx

 

and I raised partner's natural 3♣ to 4♣.

What's your 2nd negative? 2N?

 

If 3C is natural, I think you should just RKC. You want to know about the DA and the CK. You don't want partner to be captain.

[mike777]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

 

Had I been sure that partner would read 4♦ as a splinter, I would have done that, but I didn't want to introduce any ambiguity into the auction.

 

The actual hand was

 

♠AQ

♥AKQJxx

♦9

♣AQTx

 

and I raised partner's natural 3♣ to 4♣.

What's your 2nd negative? 2N?

 

If 3C is natural, I think you should just RKC. You want to know about the DA and the CK. You don't want partner to be captain.

for me if partner makes a forcing rebid I do not have a second neg.

 

 

2c=2h alerts him I may have little or unlimited tiny points.

2c=2d=100% game force

 

If pard makes a nonforcing rebid, then pass is my second neg but I strain to rebid on almost any 13 cards.

[straube]

I use 2H negative, too, but Coelacanth uses 2H to show hearts. He hasn't said what his second negative is or even if he has a second negative available.

[Coelacanth]

I use 2H negative, too, but Coelacanth uses 2H to show hearts.  He hasn't said what his second negative is or even if he has a second negative available.

I meant to state in my original post that we do not have a second negative available. After reading this discussion, I think I will discuss adding one!

 

After our sequence 2♣-2♦; 2♥-3♣; 4♣, my partner retreated to 4H, which I passed. My reasoning was that I needed hearts not worse than 5-1 (partner could have a singleton) AND either king-fifth or longer of clubs with partner (with no defensive club ruff at trick one) or the spade king onside. (Partner really can't have the ♦A after failing to bid 4♦ over 4♣).

 

Alas, partner had the required clubs and the spade was onside, so after the opponents cashed their diamond at trick one, I quickly scored up 480. I expected an average-minus, but this was actually an above average score, as NOBODY in the room (8 tables) reached the slam and there was more than one 230 on the scoresheet.