Sayc bidding problem

[Onedown]

Strictly a question

The auction goes 1H-p-2D-p-3C-p-3H

 

Is 3Hs a minimal hand in SAYC? It would show extra values in 2/1.

 

BUT since 2D is not game forcing, wdnt this show a minimal hand in SAYC?

[kenrexford]

Actually, not really. I think you are looking at the problem wrong. The issue is not so much what Responder might have as it is what Opener has promised.

 

When Opener rebid 3♣, in SAYC this is called a "high reverse" and shows GF values. Hence, Opener forced game. Responder's calls, then, are to be taken in that context.

 

The default would be that 4♥ is a weak preference, whereas 3♥ is sort of a waiting call, a "courtesy correction" that is made in the context of a GF. 3♥ might be based on uncertainty as to strain and no fit. But, if Responder does have a heart fit, then 3♥ is bid with above-average (slammish) hands, not minimums.

 

One could play that 4♥ shows extras, in which case 3♥ is either waiting or a minimum with hearts.

[awm]

The 3♣ call shows extras and establishes a game force. With a minimum hand, opener should rebid 2♥ (which is forcing one round, since a 2/1 by responder promises a rebid) and slow down the auction.

 

With that said, 3♥ is clearly forcing. There are two possible interpretations of 3♥. These are:

 

(1) It shows 3♥ with a hand that was an original game force (a limit raise hand would've bid 1♥-3♥, so any 2♦ response with three or more hearts should be game-going). This is a very real slam try in this auction!

 

(2) It could just be a preference on doubleton heart, looking for the right game. Of course, it's still forcing.

 

Which interpretation you use depends a bit on whether 3♠ in this auction would be natural or "fourth suit forcing." Both have adherents. If 3♠ is "fourth-suit forcing" then 3♥ should show a real fit and be hand type (1). If not, then 3♥ could be either of (1) or (2), however it is worth jumping to 4♥ over 3♣ on some minimum hands of type (1) to reduce the confusion.

[Onedown]

thanks to both posters here....I do want to clarify that I do understand it is a high level reverse, so unquestionably I was brain dead in asking the question now that I review it. Of course I should bid 4Hs...not 3Hs..

 

My hand was Qx Q9x Qxxxx AJx

 

This hand is handled MUCH better in 2/1 due to it being a 1NT forcing call...

[peachy]

Strictly a question

The auction goes 1H-p-2D-p-3C-p-3H

 

Is 3Hs a minimal hand in SAYC? It would show extra values in 2/1.

 

BUT since 2D is not game forcing, wdnt this show a minimal hand in SAYC?

2D was just a SAYC 2/1 bid but 3C created gameforce. 3H is not the forcing call, it was the 3C that promised neither side will stop below game. With 3-card support and limit raise, responder should bid 4H and leave the 3H bid for either false preference with weak hand, or, 3 or more card support and slam potential.

[LH2650]

My hand was Qx Q9x Qxxxx AJx

 

You have a limit raise in hearts. In SAYC, if you have a limit raise, you make it. Your first bid should have been 3♥.

[the hog]

My hand was Qx Q9x Qxxxx AJx

 

You have a limit raise in hearts. In SAYC, if you have a limit raise, you make it. Your first bid should have been 3♥.

This is not a limit raise in H. 3H would show a 4th H.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the auction became GF with 3C, hence 3H is certainly not a min. hand,

if 3H showes the fit, which would be normal, than this is actually an

invite to start a slam bidding auction.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[LH2650]

This is not a limit raise in H. 3H would show a 4th H.

The system notes may be found at:

 

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf

[pooltuna]

My hand was Qx Q9x Qxxxx AJx

 

You have a limit raise in hearts. In SAYC, if you have a limit raise, you make it. Your first bid should have been 3♥.

This is not a limit raise in H. 3H would show a 4th H.

It is, if you are not playing a F1NT or semi F1NT.

[blackshoe]

That doesn't look like a limit raise to me, unless you're a pure bean counter. The hand has 9 losers, that Qx isn't worth 2 points, and that diamond suit is pretty sparse. If partner can't move over 2♥, is there really a game here?

 

Okay, it's 10 schmoints, and the book says if it's 10-11 it's a limit raise. Partner reversed, so I suppose 4♥ will probably make this time, but what if he'd started with a bare minimum opener?

[bid_em_up]

..... but what if he'd started with a bare minimum opener?

Then he passes 3♥? wtp?

[peachy]

My hand was Qx Q9x Qxxxx AJx

 

You have a limit raise in hearts. In SAYC, if you have a limit raise, you make it. Your first bid should have been 3♥.

This is not a limit raise in H. 3H would show a 4th H.

In SAYC, it is a limit raise (for better or for worse). It would not be a limit raise for me, but I don't play SAYC.

[awm]

I think this hand is a direct limit raise. Certainly a direct limit raise does not promise four trumps in SAYC.

 

One can disagree with this evaluation, but in that case it becomes a 2♥ bid, not a 2♦ bid.

 

Don't make a 2/1 bid in SAYC when you have three-plus card support for partner's major unless you plan on forcing to game.