One hand, three decisions

[Echognome]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sa542hkjt96d98cj2]133|100|Scoring: MP

(1N)# - [1] - (2♣) - 2♦;

(P) - [2] - (2♠) - Dbl;

(P) - [3][/hv]

# 12-14

 

Over there weak NT, you play Dbl = Penalty, 2♣ Majors, others natural

 

1. What is your decision at [1]?

2. Assuming you pass at [1], what is your call at [2]?

3. Assuming you pass at [1] and [2], what is your call at [3]?

 

Feel free to answer only questions your find relevant above.

[Fluffy]

[1] I pass, over the weak NT I prefer to overcall strong.

 

[2] Tough, I don't like the majors on their hands, but I am quite strong, I will try 2♥ now as a kind of Fit-bid.

 

[3] well I must pass now if LHO really bids 2♠ on his own over my 2♥.

[jjbrr]

1. Pass. I'm more conservative than most, so I really don't think we should be bidding here.

 

2. 2♥. We got some stuff. We could still have game. Bid naturally to show partner I have some life.

 

3. Will LHO always bid 2♠ regardless of my action in 2.? Will partner always double if I bid 2♥? I guess LHO must be 6-4 to be consistent with this auction, unless you tell me this is only way to show a weak hand with one major, or something. Anyway, I'll bid 3NT.

 

Edit: Unless my opponent is just bad and will freely bid 2♠ with a garbage hand and a 5 card suit. Then pass seems clear!

[jdonn]

I like pass then 2♥ then pass the double. I wouldn't pass the double if I hadn't bid 2♥ though.

[Echognome]

Just to clarify, question 3 is only relevant if you passed in [1] and [2]. If you bid 2♥ the second time around, then it won't go 2♠ - double.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sa542hkjt96d98cj2]133|100|Scoring: MP

(1N)# - [1] - (2♣) - 2♦;

(P) - [2] - (2♠) - Dbl;

(P) - [3][/hv]

# 12-14

 

Over there weak NT, you play Dbl = Penalty, 2♣ Majors, others natural

 

1. What is your decision at [1]?

2. Assuming you pass at [1], what is your call at [2]?

3. Assuming you pass at [1] and [2], what is your call at [3]?

 

Feel free to answer only questions your find relevant above.

1} 2♣

2} pass

3} 3♥

[Siegmund]

1) flip a coin between 2♣ and pass

2) 200% pass

3) 300% pass

 

My answers to 2 and 3 depend in part on the notion that partner had some options what to do over 2♣ and chose to say he had a one-suiter with diamonds.

[Jlall]

1) 2C, I am white/white at MP with the majors!

 

2) 2H ldo

 

3) Pass

[quiddity]

1) 2C, I am white/white at MP with the majors!

Justin, how much (if at all) do you modify your overcalling style based on the 1NT range? I've always heard that it's best not to overcall with this kind of hand against a weak NT because partner will tend to drive to game - and if partner caters to this hand then we will miss other good games when I have a stronger hand.

[Jlall]

1) 2C, I am white/white at MP with the majors!

Justin, how much (if at all) do you modify your overcalling style based on the 1NT range? I've always heard that it's best not to overcall with this kind of hand against a weak NT because partner will tend to drive to game - and if partner caters to this hand then we will miss other good games when I have a stronger hand.

Totally agree that your overcalls should generally be sounder vs a weak NT than vs a strong NT, because game is still quite possible vs a weak NT, and not as much of a concern vs a strong NT.

 

That being said, at MP and especially w/w, it is very important to me to compete for the partial, especially with the majors. It is to me a NECESSARY evil to lose accuracy on game bidding in order to be able to fight for the partscore more often at this vulnerability/form of scoring. Missing a game/overbidding to a game is no worse than missing your +110 or -50 save is.

 

Obviously there must be a balance somewhere, and where that balance is is open to interpretation. I readily admit that people generally consider my hyper competitive style at w/w MP to be "crazy" but it works for me. Most deals are about finding fits and competing for the partial, not about being super accurate on game bidding.

 

If this was say imps and we were vulnerable, I would not really dream of bidding with this hand over a weak NT, because the primary concerns at imps are not going for numbers, and not missing games (and along with that, not overbidding to game far too often).

 

So I guess I'm saying that the vulnerability and scoring is affecting me more than the 1N range is, but obviously they are all factors that play into my decision. I would say that it's definitely correct to in general be sounder over weak NTs than strong NTs though.

[MickyB]

I'd sooner bid vul at imps than pass love-all at pairs. It will be right to bid a massive percentage of the time that it's a part-score hand.

 

Surely if we pass the first two times we have to bid 4H the third?

[Jlall]

Just to clarify, question 3 is only relevant if you passed in [1] and [2].  If you bid 2♥ the second time around, then it won't go 2♠ - double.

ahh, 4H then... passing twice is beyond LOL bad though, I don't even have a word for it

[the hog]

2C. If you pass this hand over a weak NT then they have got you time and time again.

 

2H.

 

Pass.

[jjbrr]

I admit I'm a little surprised you advocate bidding with this hand after 1N. It's really bad lol. Surely this is the min and you have some trepidation.

[Free]

pass and 2♥

[the hog]

I admit I'm a little surprised you advocate bidding with this hand after 1N. It's really bad lol. Surely this is the min and you have some trepidation.

Its a miimum, but it is a nv bid. As I stated, the reason players play a wnt is to shut out Caspar Milquetoasts on these hands.

[gnasher]

(1) I'd overcall 2♣ at any form of scoring and any vulnerability.

 

The worry about being raised to game puzzles me. When one of the opponents has an opening bid and a balanced hand, game for our side isn't very common. In my experience, when they open a 12-14 notrump, it'll be a partscore deal at least 10 times as often as we have a game. Your main objective when you come in should be to compete the partscore, and your style should be geared to that objective.

 

(2) For the same reason, if you pass over 1NT it's clear to bid 2H on the next round.

 

(3) Passing a third time times is madness. I have KJ109x in a major and have spurned two opportunities to show them. Now partner positively encourages me to to bid, and I decide I'd rather defend with A222 opposite a singleton?

 

Partner's typical minimum is a 1363 13-count. If he has that, the opponents bidding doesn't quite add up, so maybe he is 1264 with ♥Hx.

 

4♥ might be awkward to play, so I think it's enough to bid 2NT (scrambling), then 3♥ over 3♣ to show a game try. If partner replies 3♦ to my 2NT, I'll bid 4♥, because now there's more reason to expect three hearts. But I wouldn't have started from here.

Edited January 20, 2010 by gnasher

[hanp]

This is what would happen if I passed:

Han, what happened to you on the Landy hand?

 

Which? I don't remember a Landy hand.

 

You were also sitting north right?

 

Yeah.

 

The one with ace-fouth and kingjacktenfifth.

 

Oh that one... I passed.

 

You passed? Why did you pass? No, I'm not laughing at you, I just don't understand why you would pass with that, what were you thinking?

[jdonn]

Those darn Casper Milquetoasts and their balanced 9 counts, when will they ever learn?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=stha82dakq763c965&w=skj873h75dj54ct74&e=sq96hq43dt2cakq83&s=sa542hkjt96d98cj2]399|300|Scoring: MP

1N - P - 2♣ - 2♦;

P - P - 2♠ - All pass[/hv]

 

Partner and I were both very meek on the actual deal. The only salvage was that we defended well. Three rounds of diamonds with dummy ruffing and south pitching a club. Hold-up on one round of trumps. Take the second round and play back the ♣J. Now North gets in with hearts and South got a club ruff for down 1. Hardly compensation for missing game in either red suit.

[MFA]

Pls start bidding :)

 

2♣ over 1NT

X of 2♣ then 3♦ to show a good diamond overcall, 2♦ is acceptable but conservative

2♥ over 2♦

4♥ in the third (unlikely) scenario

 

B)

[quiddity]

The worry about being raised to game puzzles me. When one of the opponents has an opening bid and a balanced hand, game for our side isn't very common. In my experience, when they open a 12-14 notrump, it'll be a partscore deal at least 10 times as often as we have a game. Your main objective when you come in should be to compete the partscore, and your style should be geared to that objective.

Does advancer make a similar adjustment? Say advancer has a balanced 12-count - he bids 2D and finds an 8-card major suit fit. Does he tend to pass out 2x or invite?

 

And what is the maximum for this Landy bid? Do you tend to double with a 15-count (54)(13)?

[gnasher]

Say advancer has a balanced 12-count - he bids 2D and finds an 8-card major suit fit.  Does he tend to pass out 2x or invite?

You might have to give me a specific hand, but a 12-count with 3-3 in the majors probably isn't enough to invite. With four-card support it probably would be.

 

One advantage of a Landy-style 2♣ is that with four spades advancer can show an invitational hand at the two level: he bids 2♦, then converts 2♥ to 2♠. If opener bids 2♠ in reply to 2♦, there's a known 9-card fit, so advancer will be happier about raising to the three-level.

 

And what is the maximum for this Landy bid?  Do you tend to double with a 15-count (54)(13)?

No, I'd tend to show the majors, but with any more I'd usually double.

[xcurt]

That being said, at MP and especially w/w, it is very important to me to compete for the partial, especially with the majors. It is to me a NECESSARY evil to lose accuracy on game bidding in order to be able to fight for the partscore more often at this vulnerability/form of scoring. Missing a game/overbidding to a game is no worse than missing your +110 or -50 save is.

Agree with all of this. Partner knows it's matchpoints also and the value of protecting the plus.

 

Even thinking about defending 2♠x is crazy. This is a simple hand evaluation problem and has nothing to do with the form of scoring. Curt's law of partial tricks says they have about 4 more spade tricks on play than on defense to hearts. You can't gain by defending, least of all at these colors, bid out.