Denial cue bid spiral

[Valardent]

Hi,

 

After number of slam points has been showed (A=3, K=2, Q=1), what do you think of this DCB scheme ?

 

1st step means 0 or Q or AKQ (skip on 2nd scan shows Q or AKQJ, a stop is 0 or AKQ)

A skip shows A or K or AK or AQ or KQ (skip on 2nd scan for AK, AQ or KQ)

 

I can see 2 improvements (compared with the scheme where 1st step is AKQ or 0 and a skip is A, K or Q) :

 

1) you can detect on 1st scan wheter AK in a suit is missing or not (rare but it happens), allowing to sign off sooner than with some other schemes where you need a 2nd if not a 3rd scan to deduce AK is missing (sometimes you even cannot tell or you are already too high).

 

2) when you have Axx(x)(x) or Kxx(x)(x) in a side suit where partner has 2 cards, knowing Kx or Ax (instead of maybe Qx) directly on 1st scan can be decisive.

 

Maybe it doesn't work properly in some cases. Can you think of situations where that would be the case?

 

 

I also thought of a modified scheme depending on the distribution.

 

For example, p has described a one suited hand (6+ cards) or a 2 suited hand (at least 5-5) :

 

1st step, only for the long(s) suit(s), is 0, Q, KQJ or AKQ (skip on 2nd scan shows Q or AKQJ while 1st step shows 0, KQJ or AKQ).

 

The delta between the possibilities on the 2nd scan is 5 SP for Q vs AKQJ and 3 SP for 0 vs KQJ or KQJ vs AKQ. That minimum 3 SP difference should be enough to unveiled any ambiguity.

 

A skip shows A or K or AK or AQ or KQ (skip on 2nd scan for AK, AQ or KQ)

 

Is this managable?

 

Any comment is welcome.

 

Patrick

[dake50]

Yeah, yeah IF SCAN starts early. But that is always winning over RKCB 4N, 4x.

[straube]

I think you're proposing what I always thought was standard. Using slam points, you only scan for the A or K on the first pass. So a stop denies the A or K or shows the AKQ. On the second pass, you scan for the queen as well as the other control.

[wclass___]

I don't like to scan same suit twice. It takes a lot of bidding space.

 

1st step as 0/2 from AKQ (xxx; AK; AQ; KQ)

Skip as 1/3 from AKQ (A; K; Q; AKQ)

 

You need a very good logics, but it is possible to deduce exact holding most of the time.

[chasetb]

I know this is raising this topic from the dead a little, but I am curious about DCB in a Strong Club Relay system. I've read a little about it, but am still not 100% sure. What document(s) are best for reading up on Denial Cue Bids? Must you know exactly how many controls/relay points partner has in order to effectively use DCB? How do you know when to run on/skip (i.e rules)? How easy is it to show Queens and Jacks if partner shows two long suits?

[straube]

I know this is raising this topic from the dead a little, but I am curious about DCB in a Strong Club Relay system. I've read a little about it, but am still not 100% sure. What document(s) are best for reading up on Denial Cue Bids? Must you know exactly how many controls/relay points partner has in order to effectively use DCB? How do you know when to run on/skip (i.e rules)? How easy is it to show Queens and Jacks if partner shows two long suits?

 

I would think DCB is suitable for a system that uses controls, but if you use relay/queen points then PCB (parity cue bidding) is more efficient. Adam (awm) has described PCB and you can probably search for it or ask him. My understanding is that after QPs you scan longest to shortest suits (tie to the higher) and...

 

stop with even (0 or 2)

skip with odd (1 or 3)

 

Next scan singletons and stop with a stiff honor (A, K, or Q (Adam counts stiff Qs in his total relay point count but we don't)) but skip with a small singleton (Jack of lower)

 

Next look at the first odd suit and stop holding the king (or AKQ) but skip without

 

If no odd suit, then scan the first even suit for the king, stopping with the king and skipping without

 

Then scan for jacks, stopping without and skipping with.

 

I may not have exactly what Adam uses, but this is our current method based on what we learned from him.

[sieong]

That's pretty much what Adam and I play, except when we have all even parity we don't clarify the honors in the first suit.

 

The most extensive analysis I have come across is JVCB from the Swedish folks. There is some attempt to improve its efficiency further, e.g., here: http://dipbridge.wordpress.com/2008/12/. It is on my list of to-dos to figure out which one is more effective. From experience, we on average resolve the honor structure somewhere about 5H and 5S, leaving about 1 level of space for exploring grands.

[hrothgar]

I know this is raising this topic from the dead a little, but I am curious about DCB in a Strong Club Relay system. I've read a little about it, but am still not 100% sure. What document(s) are best for reading up on Denial Cue Bids? Must you know exactly how many controls/relay points partner has in order to effectively use DCB? How do you know when to run on/skip (i.e rules)? How easy is it to show Queens and Jacks if partner shows two long suits?

 

My MOSCITO notes have a decent introduction