Two-way doubles

[awm]

Two way doubles (described in another thread) are doubles which can be either takeout or penalty. Partner is supposed to guess which you have based on the auction and his own hand. Does anyone actually play these in a serious partnership? If so, what are your experiences with them?

[Fluffy]

it seems easy to find out what to do when you have 1 card on their suit, or 5 cards, however depending on the situation, there will always be a holding such as 2 or 3 cards where you will ahve no clue of what is going on.

[OleBerg]

In my partnership, which at least I myself consider to be serious, I play them in one situation only:

 

(1x) - Pass - (1NT) - Pass

Pass - X

 

Lead director/penalty or take-out.

 

I vaguely record thinking that it is not so hot on ambigious 1♣/♦ openings. But cannot remember a mix-up either.

[gwnn]

They may make sense over

2D-p-xM-Dbl

where 2D is multi and xM was a p/c bid at any level. Opener shouldn't have the guts to pass it with the 'other' major. Sure if partner has 6 cards in opener's suit we will not like it but at least we gain a level when he has 0-4 cards. But I've never tried these, somehow all I've ever agreed to multi seems to be "x is weak NT, the bid of the other major is a cuebid".

[gnasher]

They may make sense over

2D-p-xM-Dbl

where 2D is multi and xM was a p/c bid at any level.

I play them in that situation. It seems to work OK.

[whereagles]

OleBerg's double is described in Mike Lawrence's book on take out doubles as exactly that <_<

[mich-b]

I think "either-or" doubles can be used in some specific situations, generally when one opponent bid a major, and the other denied fit there. This is necessary so that we have a good estimate how many trumps they have.

 

The other necessary condition is that the player who makes the "either or" double should have a clear penalty (5+ trumps) or a clear takeout (singleton or void). If you try that with in-between hands , partner may well guess wrong.

 

I think the idea has merit in some specific situations , that need to be well defined.

One example may be :

1♦ - 1♥

1NT - 2♥ - DBL

And one will get it right if you stick to the rule of (5+ or 1-).

 

My partner is a great fan of "either or" , but we never really agreed to play them , because getting it wrong would usually be very costly.

[mich-b]

In my partnership, which at least I myself consider to be serious, I play them in one situation only:

 

(1x) - Pass - (1NT) - Pass

Pass -  X

 

Lead director/penalty or take-out.

 

I vaguely record thinking that it is not so hot on ambigious 1♣/♦ openings. But cannot remember a mix-up either.

I don't see the merit of this, when they opened 1M.

 

After :

1♠ - Pass - (1NT) - Pass

Pass - ?

 

When would you consider a takeout double?

Keep in mind, that your hand was not good enough for a double on the previous round , and since then LHO showed some values , and denied a fit. So why should I enter now?

 

For us, a double here would be 100% penalty, suggesting a ♠ lead.

[P_Marlowe]

In my partnership, which at least I myself consider to be serious, I play them in one situation only:

 

(1x) - Pass - (1NT) - Pass

Pass -  X

 

Lead director/penalty or take-out.

 

I vaguely record thinking that it is not so hot on ambigious 1♣/♦ openings. But cannot remember a mix-up either.

I don't see the merit of this, when they opened 1M.

 

After :

1♠ - Pass - (1NT) - Pass

Pass - ?

 

When would you consider a takeout double?

Keep in mind, that your hand was not good enough for a double on the previous round , and since then LHO showed some values , and denied a fit. So why should I enter now?

 

For us, a double here would be 100% penalty, suggesting a ♠ lead.

For us the X would be a clear T/O.

 

The argument that LHO showed values is true, although it is better to say,

LHO showed limited values.

But of course there is an counter argument, that peoble usually ommit -

openers pass over 1NT limits openers hands, so we have the situation

that LHO showed limited add. values and opener denied add. values.

 

And given that some peoble req. for a T/O in direct seat opening values,

just because I am short in spades, does not mean, that I was able to make

a T/O the round before.

 

In the end it is a matter of style / philosophy - whatever you think suits you

better / works for you better, but there are arguments, that support to use X

for T/O, ... and obviously I my opinion is, that those arguments are stronger,

but it is fine to disagree with this weighting.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Poky]

The best situation to play them is:

 

1NT pass Jacoby pass

Accept pass pass

 

Now, double is:

a ) TO with 1♥

b ) Penalty with 5♥

 

Partner always knows.

[hanp]

I don't play two-way doubles, I don't know if they are bad but I have no desire to play them.

 

Which option do I click?

[OleBerg]

OleBerg's double is described in Mike Lawrence's book on take out doubles as exactly that :blink:

I've played it for a decade, so I might have picked it up there, can't remember.

[OleBerg]

They may make sense over

2D-p-xM-Dbl

where 2D is multi and xM was a p/c bid at any level. Opener shouldn't have the guts to pass it with the 'other' major. Sure if partner has 6 cards in opener's suit we will not like it but at least we gain a level when he has 0-4 cards. But I've never tried these, somehow all I've ever agreed to multi seems to be "x is weak NT, the bid of the other major is a cuebid".

I wouldn't recommend that double if you play with screens.

 

You will have disasters all the times advancers suit happens to be openers. This aplies moreso, when playing against jokers that multi on 5-card-suits.

[gwnn]

I'm sorry is this another little thinly veiled accusation of cheating? I am not offended or anything but I'd like to know.

[OleBerg]

I'm sorry is this another little thinly veiled accusation of cheating? I am not offended or anything but I'd like to know.

No it isn't.

 

It is just my, maybe a little headstrong, way of making the generalisation, that sometimes conventions dont work with screens, because it stops information that people sometimes exchange unknowingly, when screens not are in use.

 

And it certainly wasn't personel.

 

(But maybe I should drop it, noone seems to care.)

[helene_t]

Was about to mention Csaba's example, but only at the 3+ level:

 

(2♦)-x-(3♥)-x

 

If opener passes, they ought to have a 9-card fit, or maybe 8-card fit if they don't believe in the LOTT. The double shows either 5+ hearts or t/o of hearts. If you are void in hearts you will have to guess but generally the double is t/o.

 

Dunno if opener will have the guts to pass with spades. He "knows" his partner has 3+ hearts and his RHO has 5+. So if he has 2+ hearts, his LHO has max. 3 hearts and usually only 2. OTOH his RHO could have 2- hearts and his LHO 17+ points 5+ hearts.

 

I am afraid some multi-players would have the guts. Suppose we play in a jurisdiction where no doubles are alertable, and they didn't bother to look at our CC (or our CC didn't specify the meaning of the 2nd double). Then it is probably safe. And if opener looks at our CC, or asks questions, at his 2nd turn, he gives the show away. Or maybe not. Some people might consider bidding 4♥ depending of the meaning of the 2nd double.

[jdonn]

The best situation to play them is:

 

1NT pass Jacoby pass

Accept pass pass

 

Now, double is:

a ) TO with 1♥

b ) Penalty with 5♥

 

Partner always knows.

It's too big a problem to me that you can't make a takeout double with 2 hearts playing that.

 

I don't like 2 way doubles in any situation that I know of. But I'm also no expert at playing against multi.

[fred]

1S-P-1NT-P-2S-P-P-DBL

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[dake50]

2-way double wins. Director called by opponents damaged.

How do you convince that the decision to pass/bid after double wasn't influenced?

Won't you get some logical alternative adjustment?

 

Similar to odd-even signals when a BIT occurs without the right parity card. Try to justify the thinking pause as other than alerting partner to 'wrong parity' signal doesn't mean what it ostensibly does mean.

[gwnn]

(But maybe I should drop it, noone seems to care.)

yes, you should drop it, we are all cheaters who don't like you exposing our devious ways.

[fred]

1S-P-1NT-P-2S-P-P-DBL

Now that I think about it...

 

Even those who claim to never play 2-way doubles play them in this auction.

 

Imagine that you have, say, 6 HCP and a void in spades and the bidding goes this way with partner being the DBLer. Are you really saying you wouldn't Pass just because you have agreed to play takeout Doubles in this auction?

 

Maybe you think this doesn't apply to you because you have agreed to play penalties Doubles in this auction? Then imagine that you have an opening bid with KQJ109 of spades and the bidding goes this way with partner being the DBLer. Do you think your partner has a penalty Double just because that is what you agreed?

 

So you are already playing 2-way doubles if your partner makes one. If you think "well, my partner would never make one", then I would suggest that your partner is missing some good opportunities.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

1S-P-1NT-P-2S-P-P-DBL

Now that I think about it...

 

Even those who claim to never play 2-way doubles play them in this auction.

No, they are just missing the good opportunities you speak of. ;) I could imagine a problem if the partner of the doubler has 2 (Are the opponents in a 7-3 fit or a 6-0 fit) but that is just one unlikely case so it's probably worth it anyway.

[Finch]

The way I (and I think gnasher) play the Multi sequences is not what I consider to be a 'true' 2-way double.

 

A genuine 2-way double is one showing either 0/1 trumps or 5+ trumps; partner is supposed to work out which. The auction in which I would like to play them (but I don't) is

 

1/2/3H P 4H P

P ?

 

Where you want to double 4S both on A10xx - A10xxx 10xxx and on Axx KQJ10 Kxxx xx (and I've had both of those hands in the past on this auction)

 

I play the sequences 2D (multi) P 2H/3H (poc) x slightly differently. Double is either take-out of hearts, or a strong hand, possibly with heart length, that is frightened to pass in case opener passes. Your down-the-middle 1453 13-count passes 2H and doubles 2/3 spades next round. To double 2H/3H here with heart length you need a very good hand e.g 1543 18-count. But as partner of the doubler I'm not supposed to guess whether doubler is short or long. We treat the double as take-out of hearts initially, but the idea is that opener's pass or bid will tell you what his suit is, and you adjust accordingly.

[bluecalm]

Imagine that you have, say, 6 HCP and a void in spades and the bidding goes this way with partner being the DBLer. Are you really saying you wouldn't Pass just because you have agreed to play takeout Doubles in this auction?

 

Maybe partner has a t/o double with xxxx/xxxxx of spades and many points ?

 

xxxx

A

AKQx

KQxx

 

xxxxx

x

AKQx

AKQx

 

He couldn't act over 1NT because t/o double would promise ♥ fit what he is suppose to do now being almost sure we have profitable 3level (or even 5level) contract ?

If you say 2NT, then what about :

xxxx

AKQx

x

AKQx

?

[gnasher]

The way I (and I think gnasher) play the Multi sequences is not what I consider to be a 'true' 2-way double.

 

A genuine 2-way double is one showing either 0/1 trumps or 5+ trumps; partner is supposed to work out which.

Actually I do prefer to play it as a "true" two-way double: a takeout double of the suit bid, or an overcall in the suit bid.

 

With a normal-strength takeout double of the other major, I'd pass. With a very strong version of the same, I'd make something up.