Common bidding problem after t/o double

[bluecalm]

Let's say it goes :

 

1♥ - dbl - pass - 1♠

2♥ - 2♠- pass- ?

 

Now responder has a problem. Partner can have 12hcp and standard t/o double with 4♠ or even 15-16hcp. On the other hand responder can have 0hcp or even 10 (correct ?)

Some examples:

 

ATxx

Kx

Qxx

QJxx

 

KQxx

xxx

Axxx

xx

 

Responder has maximum for 1♠ but still is afraid to invite a game because the doubler can have the above hand. On the other hand the doubler can have:

 

ATxx

Kx

KQx

Axxx

 

And 11 tricks is very probable.

 

Do you have any thoughts or solutions to this problem ? In general it occurs after t/o double and raise of major suit by the doubler.

 

Take care B)

[helene_t]

I think the first North hand you give is slightly too weak for 2♠. South will make a game try with the hand you give him so therefore the first North must pass. He doesn't need quite as much as the 2nd South hand, though.

[dake50]

Doesn't the T/O doubler have other strong bids? Thus 2S just announces S-fit confirmed and liked?

 

What would repeat X, then 3S mean? Or 3H Q-bid? Or 3m force? Or even 3S? Or pass?

This is an expected auction after T/O double of 1H, aren't continuations clear?

[bluecalm]

What would repeat X, then 3S mean? Or 3H Q-bid? Or 3m force? Or even 3S? Or pass?

This is an expected auction after T/O double of 1H, aren't continuations clear?

 

The problem is that with 15-16-17hcp and 4-2-3-4 or somethign you don't want to go to 3level facing possible 0hcp.

[Little Kid]

Isn't 1♠ 0-7 and 2♠ 8-11 or so after the double?

[helene_t]

Isn't 1♠ 0-7 and 2♠ 8-11 or so after the double?

Matter of agreement but there is a modern trend (at least in the Netherlands) towards non-jump advances with more values. Most 8-counts and some 9-counts would not make a jump in the current fashion.

 

dake50: 3m is not forcing.

[hanp]

I wouldn't bid 2S with the first hand. I would however bid 2S with a fairly minimal 4-1-4-4 shape so the problem is there and I don't have a solution.

[pooltuna]

Let's say it goes :

 

1♥ - dbl - pass - 1♠

2♥ - 2♠- pass- ?

 

Now responder has a problem. Partner can have 12hcp and standard t/o double with 4♠ or even 15-16hcp. On the other hand responder can have 0hcp or even 10 (correct ?)

Some examples:

 

ATxx

Kx

Qxx

QJxx

 

KQxx

xxx

Axxx

xx

 

Responder has maximum for 1♠ but still is afraid to invite a game because the doubler can have the above hand. On the other hand the doubler can have:

 

ATxx

Kx

KQx

Axxx

 

And 11 tricks is very probable.

 

Do you have any thoughts or solutions to this problem ? In general it occurs after t/o double and raise of major suit by the doubler.

 

Take care B)

you need to add some structure to your responses to a TOX. In the particular auction you are showing the responder should assume that you have a minimal TOX and respond accordingly. Since the TOXer has support for all unbid suits the responder treats his response like partner had opened that 4 card suit. So 1♠ generally is less than a constructive raise(could be 0) and promises 3+ cards only. 2♠ is a constructive raise and 3♠ would be a limit raise. Now with a minimum TOX the rebids all show xtras even in a competitive auction so

(1♥) X (P) 1♠;

(2♥) 2♠

Shows extras, about a K extra.

[Old York]

It is dangerous for doubler to bid twice with a minimum hand. He has described his hand already, so should leave the decision to partner. Double-then-pass shows a minimum. Never bid twice with a weak hand unless partner forces.

Double-then-bid always shows extra strength

I would not be timid as responder, jumping to 2♠ has merit with 10 total points, 8 losers and good Spades

 

Tony

[petterb]

ATxx

Kx

Qxx

QJxx

 

KQxx

xxx

Axxx

xx

I'd bid 2♠ instead of 1♠, and definitely pass with a minimum takeout double. 2♠ by takeout doubler shows extras.

[hanp]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

 

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

[mich-b]

I wouldn't bid 2S with the first hand. I would however bid 2S with a fairly minimal 4-1-4-4 shape.

I agree with this.

The responder should assume the doubler has something between minimal 4144 , and a balanced 16, and invite if he thinks this may be enough to make game.

 

 

KQxx

xxx

Axxx

xx

 

This hand though , IMHO , is a 2♠ response , not 1♠.

In reality the responder will rarely have a hand worth an invite opposite a competitive raise.

[Old York]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so

Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

 

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

 

Tony

[Codo]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

 

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

Maybe it is, but I do not like your reason:

 

If 2 Spade from doubler promises extras, you surely will bid 2 spade on Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx,because you know that partner with minimum values has a 4 card fit or at least a real good 31(45)- in both cases it must be right to compete in the pass out seat.

 

I never understood the modern trend of bidding 1 spade with 0-10. I see no upsides but some difficult problems later. Maybe someone can explain the upsides to me?

[hanp]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so

Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

 

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

 

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

[pooltuna]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so

Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

 

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

 

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

I assume you are objecting to the possibility of playing a 3-4 ♠ fit (apparently my definition not yours) but guess what if you bid 2♠ because you have 4 with a minimal hand you still may end up playing a 4-3♠ fit. IMO if you bid 2♠ with no extra values you are bidding the same values twice.

[Old York]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

 

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

 

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

On over 90% of hands, doubler has shown spades. If he does not have spades, then that is his problem, not mine... without spades he must have compensating values in the minors. Regardless, I will trust him, until I get evidence to the contrary

 

Tony

Edit:

Bidding twice with inadequate values shows a lack of respect for your partner's judgement. To maintain partnership harmony, you should always double-then-pass

[helene_t]

Tony, these guys routinely double 1♥ on a 32(53) 11-count.

 

OTOH responder's 1♠ bid may be a 3-card as well, but assuming that doubler is more likely to have only three spades than advancer is, it is doubler's responsibility to bid 2♠ with four. Advancer can double 2♥ with four spades and extras.

[jdonn]

This thread is wow.

 

The advancer of KQxx xxx Axxx xx has an automatic 2♠ bid on the first round.

 

Obviously bidding 2♠ directly when you might not have a fit and being pushed there when you might not have a fit are totally different things.

[Old York]

Tony, these guys routinely double 1♥ on a 32(53) 11-count.

 

OTOH responder's 1♠ bid may be a 3-card as well, but assuming that doubler is more likely to have only three spades than advancer is, it is doubler's responsibility to bid 2♠ with four. Advancer can double 2♥ with four spades and extras.

I totally agree, but without this undisclosed partnership agreement, I still prefer the old-fashioned methods

I freely admit to being old-school, but my statement does hold water

If partner chooses to make a takeout double, and then bid again, with inadequate values, then that is his problem and not mine

 

With deepest respect

Tony

[helene_t]

but without this undisclosed partnership agreement

hehe the agreement is playable even if you disclose it. OTOH opps may assume that you adhere to that style so if you don't you'd better disclose as well :blink:

[Tomi2]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

 

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

Maybe it is, but I do not like your reason:

 

If 2 Spade from doubler promises extras, you surely will bid 2 spade on Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx,because you know that partner with minimum values has a 4 card fit or at least a real good 31(45)- in both cases it must be right to compete in the pass out seat.

 

I never understood the modern trend of bidding 1 spade with 0-10. I see no upsides but some difficult problems later. Maybe someone can explain the upsides to me?

hope I don't take too much of your time...

 

- playing the jump as "could be even 8 points and maybe only 4 cards spades" will also cause trouble, because in competition doubler cant be sure if there is a good fit or only this 4 card fit. Playing jumps real constructive you often assume 5 cards in spades

 

- playing the jump as 4 cards and 8 points makes you need an invitational bid, so with 10 to 11 points and 4 cards or say good 9 and 5 card fit you need either to cuebid or jump to 3 level, this might be too high already

 

- playing the cuebid only inviatational then causes LOTS of problems with forcing hands, after partners response to the cuebid, normaly 2!S you need to find a bit that confirms if you have 4, 5 spades, or if you only cuebided because of your points and maybe have no 4 spades and no real suit at all

 

playing jumps as constructive and often 5 cards you have to bid 1s on many good hands, but as above mentioned, if 1s gets passed out you did not miss a game, else you get a 2nd bid to show your additional strength like a double in later bidding, this is by newer standards of course not penalty

 

 

the fact with 4 and 5 card fit is more important on T/O doubles after 1m than after 1H, because a T/O X on 1 club more often includes only 3 card support for one specific major than x on 1 hearts that is very often based on 4 spades, so playing the old way, you get to play in 4-3 fits more often after a bidding like 1d - x- p - 2h all pass

 

 

I think the modern concept of wide ranging responses to TO doubles fits well together with the modern style of doubling (some very light hands and some offshape hands often double) and bidding (your heavy bid rarely gets passed out)

[Old York]

but without this undisclosed partnership agreement

hehe the agreement is playable even if you disclose it. OTOH opps may assume that you adhere to that style so if you don't you'd better disclose as well :)

I am so pleased that you saw the humour. Far too many fail to recognise the English SOH (Python/Fawlty Towers/Red Dwarf)

 

I give myself a big LOL

 

Tony :lol:

[bluecalm]

This thread is wow.

 

The advancer of KQxx xxx Axxx xx has an automatic 2♠ bid on the first round.

 

I was more interested in general problem in those situations. I just made up those hands as an example. If you think it's automatic 2♠ (it probably is I was asking about responding style too) then make it :

 

♠T9xx ♥AQx♦ x ♣K9xxx

 

Is it still automatic 2♠ ? If yes, what about same hand with Q♣ instead of K ?

 

What should partner bid with :

 

AKxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

 

Surely nothing at 3level. What should he bid with:

 

Kxxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

 

I am asking about solution for this situation. Is 1♠ 0-10 ? Is 2♠ 11-17 ? I am not that much interested in specific hands. Just make your own to fit your style. Maybe with your style there is no problem at all in those situations. If that is the case I would love to know what this style is :-)

[Old York]

I am asking about solution for this situation. Is 1♠ 0-10 ? Is 2♠ 11-17 ?

Using standard methods with a pick-up partner

After 1♥ is doubled

 

1♠ response to double is minimum (0-9 total points - may be 3 card)

1NT response 6-9hcp+stopper

2♠ response is invitational (10-12 total points)

2NT response is invitational (10-12hcp + stopper)

3♠ response is often pre-emptive (weak with good spades)

3NT response is 13hcp with double stopper

4♠ response is 13+ with an excellent suit

2♥ bid is also 13+ (may be directional asking)

 

Others may disagree, but this is a reasonably safe approach - which has been proved to work, and should not end in disaster

All of the above assumes that the double was minimum, but not sub-minimum.

A take-out double is expected to show opening values, shortage in enemy suit and support (or tollerance) for all unbid suits.... unless doubler is very strong (16+)

 

Tony