dickiegera Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 The bidding goes: 1♦ P 1NT P2♦ X Is this take out or penalty? Doubler holds 98x, J10x, Ax, AQJxx Thank you for all comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 The bidding goes: 1♦ P 1NT P2♦ X Is this take out or penalty? Doubler holds 98x, J10x, Ax, AQJxx Thank you for all comments 2c over 1d See Sabine Aukin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 The bidding goes: 1♦ P 1NT P2♦ X Is this take out or penalty? Doubler holds 98x, J10x, Ax, AQJxx Thank you for all comments Generally IMO it is penalty. Of course in this particular case the X was mistimed and should have happened a round earlier and not now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONEferBRID Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 I agree with the Tuna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 t/o but the hand doesn't qualify. P is not likely to bid 3♣ (responder has usually 4+ clubs) so you need 4-4 majors for this double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 Perhaps the answer is "none of the above"... Maybe it is an "either-or double". Partner looks at his diamond holding to decide. Maybe it is a takeout double of clubs. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 Hi, Yes, the X is for T/O. You could say that the X is for penalty, since he did not bid the round before, but to make the X one round before, one would need opening strength.In the discussed seq. both oponents are limited, and there is a risk, that theyplay 2D, unless you can push them one level up.As it is, the way the auction developed, you know that they have a fit - thereis no 100% certainty, but well. You dont get rich, if you let them play on the 2 level. If you have a pen., wait partner will reopen. With kind regardsMarlowe PS: You may or may not like to overcall with the given hand, Pass and 2C after1D are both ok, that is basically a style thing, but to pass now, is giving up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 2c over 1d See Sabine Aukin. Both are pleasant thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 I would bid 2♣ over 1♦. We don't have the vul but I'd probably do it regardless and could get flamed for suggesting it vul in these forums. Double or pass over 1♦ are also ok though. To answer the actual question, I doubt there is much mileage in playing it for penalties in this particular sequence but there are other similar sequences where the penalty interpretation would be the standard one. This really needs partnership agreement - e.g. double over the opening bidder is penalties if partner has acted but takeout if they have passed throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 The bidding goes: 1♦ P 1NT P2♦ X Is this take out or penalty? Doubler holds 98x, J10x, Ax, AQJxx Thank you for all comments 2c over 1d See Sabine Aukin. X over 1♦. See "Bridge". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 penalty, because it makes no sense to double for take out at the 2 level when we couldn't double for take out at the 1 level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 penalty, because it makes no sense to double for take out at the 2 level when we couldn't double for take out at the 1 level... unless you forgot to do so the first time, as happened here :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickiegera Posted January 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I holding 98x, J10x, Ax, AQJxx chose not to double [right or wrong] 1st timehowever after opener limited his opening bid and responder denied 4 card major and limitedhis bid I felt the need to balance with a double. Maybe in future I need to be more careful?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I like to play this as the majors, something like AKxx AKxx xxxx x would be typical. I played it as penalty forever, but it just never came up when they responded 1N, and even if you have a penalty X partner will balance with a X a lot on this auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Maybe it is an "either-or double". Partner looks at his diamond holding to decide. Partner looks at his diamonds? With good diamonds he passes or with really bad diamoinds? If the second, is this normal or correct? I've been on occasions of the idea that this was wrong (even though I tried to employ it nut was told otherwise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Maybe it is an "either-or double". Partner looks at his diamond holding to decide. Partner looks at his diamonds? With good diamonds he passes or with really bad diamoinds? If the second, is this normal or correct? I've been on occasions of the idea that this was wrong (even though I tried to employ it nut was told otherwise).By "either-or double" I mean that you double both with hands suitable for a takeout double and with hands suitable for a penalty double. Partner will usually be able to figure out what you have on a given deal by examining his diamond holding (among other things). Once partner thinks he knows if your double is for takeout or for penalty, he acts accordingly. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 They may have as much as 11 on this auction. I'd be afraid to expect p to get it. :blink: I really like the t/o of ♣ thingie tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 They may have as much as 11 on this auction. I'd be afraid to expect p to get it. :blink: I really like the t/o of ♣ thingie tho.Maybe if your opponents are either super-smart or super-dumb they could have a lot of diamonds between them, but it is not really possible for average opponents (because your LHO will normally raise 2D to 3D with a diamond fit). Also note that, in this particular auction, partner's HCP count will often allow him to resolve the ambiguity - if his hand is very weak then a penalty double is likely. But you are right that the main problem with these either-or doubles is that partner will sometimes have to guess what you have. I am not necessarily advocating playing either-or doubles in this auction (or any other auction for that matter), but I thought it was worth mentioning since there are probably plenty of players out there who are not familiar with this interesting concept. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Kantar wrote a hilarious piece after Marshall Miles convinced him to play ALL doubles as two-way depending on your hand. I'll post it if I can find it. The fact that they alerted them as such led to defending 1 spade doubled when the opps had 12 of them and he concluded that partnership agreements here should be "always" or "never", not sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 X over 1♦. See "Bridge". QFT. I mean I really can't see any problem.I play the double as penalty but I admit that after 1♦ it won't come up too often (or never). In similar sequences : 1♥/♠ - pass - 1NT - pass2♥/♠ - double as penalty is much more useful though and I don't want to break the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=34634 had this exact auction and everybody doubled (even though I agree it was few people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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