Do I promise a rebid after responding at level 2?

[Orla]

The other evening, playing in our club. we had this hand:

Partner/Dealer

♠AQT98X

♥A763

♦-

♣AK7

 

Bidding goes 1♠ -- 2♦ -- 2♥

 

My question is:

When I bid 2♦, do I promise partner not to pass his next bid?

When he bids 2♥ and I cannot support either major, must I bid 2NT?

 

As it was, I had this hand.

♠XX

♥Q9XX

♦AQT9X

♣QX

 

I was absolutely minimum for my 2♦ bid. I didn't pass 2♥, but was almost tempted because I thought 2♥ was weakish and I didn't see game.

 

Basically, two questions arose from this hand:

Should my partner have shown his strength by bidding 3♥ after I showed my 10+pts?

Is 2♥ (a new suit) from partner always forcing?

 

We need to hear comments

[mikeh]

In NA, a 2/1 response by an unpassed hand 100% promises another bid. I understand that this may not be the case in some other areas of the globe, but it is fundamental to standard-based North American bidding and allows of no exceptions.

 

The fact that this causes problems on occasion is one of the reasons why 2/1 gf or near gf has become the more common approach amongst experienced pairs in NA.

 

BTW, I suspect that even in methods where opener's rebid of 2♠ would be passable, it is probably common to play that opener's change of suit is forcing one round...maybe our acolites can address this?

[aguahombre]

I think not everyone (if playing a plain old vanilla system) would choose 2D/1S just because they have ten points. Some would be content with a non-forcing 1NT.

 

This would eliminate the problem implied by the OP: that his previous action scares him into wanting to pass, even though partner probably thinks he is owed another bid.

 

1S 1NT

2H 3H

4H (or 4C)---final contract would be 4H.

 

the 2H rebid is heavy, but a good choice --the 3H raise is fairly descriptive, with 4-card support and top of 1NT response.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Orla,

 

To get an for you helpfull answer, you should state the system you are playing

with your partner.

 

Playing Acol style - 2D does not promise a 2nd bid

Most players on BBO, who claim to play SAYC / standard American, would most

likely play it that way, ... although

 

Playing real SAYC style, FD+ style, SEF - 2D promises a 2nd bid, i.e. opener can

bid 2H even with really strong hand, because he gets the chance to bid a 3rd time.

This means, that 2H is forcing, but not because it is a new suit, it is because of

the promise 2D gave to your partner, so it would be better to say, that 2H cant be

passed.

If 2H is forcing, than this means a 3H could be played as a splinter for diamonds.

 

Playing 2/1 style - 2D was already gameforcing, i.e. as long as no game was bid,

both sides have to find bids.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jjbrr]

Orla, an important concept to remember in bidding is that you have to be consistent throughout the entire auction. If, for example, you decide to make a 2♦ bid on this hand, you cannot later decide that you aren't strong enough for the subsequent bids. This is true because partner still has not limited his strength; he may be driving to slam even opposite your minimum 2♦ bid.

 

Once you describe your hand as showing some amount of strength, you cannot later decide that you aren't good enough and try to compensate by passing a forcing bid or otherwise doing something to jeopardize partnership harmony. Kudos for resisting the urge to pass; you did well.

 

So to answer your questions: Yes, when you bid 2♦, you promise another bid, especially when partner bids a new suit. Some play that 1M 2m 2M is passable, but that's up to you and your partner. Secondly, no, not at all. There are plenty of hands where you might simply take a preference to partner's first suit with a doubleton and an otherwise balanced hand, or you might bid 3m with extra length in your suit. You may have length in the 4th suit and want to bid it naturally (or artificially, I suppose) as well. 2NT is likely the most common bid when you don't have support, but it's certainly not mandatory.

[Stephen Tu]

My question is:

When I bid 2♦, do I promise partner not to pass his next bid?

65 years ago you could probably pass. These days people promise rebids after 2/1s playing SA. YMMV playing stone age Acol.

 

When he bids 2♥ and I cannot support either major, must I bid 2NT?

With some hands you might prefer to rebid diamonds, rebid clubs, or make a preference to 2s on a doubleton rather than rebid 2nt if it's more descriptive.

 

I was absolutely minimum for my 2♦ bid. I didn't pass 2♥, but was almost tempted because I thought 2♥ was weakish and I didn't see game.

When 2/1s promise a rebid, 2♥ is not weakish! Opener can have a 20 count, he can rebid 2♥ since he knows you'll bid again. The idea behind 2/1 promising a rebid is so that opener *doesn't* have to jump around just to show an extra king, and other bids can be more descriptive. That way 3♥, for example, can promise 5-5 in the majors, and you can find your 5-3 heart fits or stay in 3nt as appropriate. If 3♥ only showed 4 hearts, and just 15 pts rather than 12, then it's difficult to get to 4h when opener actually is 5-5 and responder has 3 cd support.

[ggwhiz]

In S/A the 2D bid ALWAYS promises another call.

 

The north hand above may even belong in clubs (6?), especially if 1 small spade was changed to a club and complicated opening bids that have 3 suits need to go as slow as possible to investigate instead of guessing.

 

The answer I like best of the above is that not all 10 point hands should bid a 2 over 1. If you are nervous about making that second bid, bid 1nt the first time.

 

A corollory that I see often is that not all 10 (or even 13) point hands are worth a 2 level overcall.

[Siegmund]

It's not completely ridiculous to agree that one or two out of 1♠-2♦-2♠, 1♠-2♦-2NT, and 1♠-2♦-3♦ can be passed. (With one partner, I have the agreement that the first two are passable, as an escape route with "11 opposite 11".) It's a somewhat uncommon and old-fashioned agreement.

 

But in an unknown partnership playing SA, assume all of these will lead to a 2nd bid by responder.

 

And with OR without that kind of an agreement, 1♠-2♦-2♥ is 100% forcing, and on the posted cards you have a nice easy raise. Game is very possible!

[Codo]

2 ♦ and 2 ♥ are 100% forcing.

 

 

 

Your hand had improved remarkably during the biddng: You discovered a major fit.

 

The way I play it, there is no way to raise partner here nonforcing, so 3 Heart would show slam interest. I have to bid 4 Heart but I would not be unhappy about it.

[whereagles]

In all systems that I know that have a forcing 2/1, responder promises another bid.

[Mbodell]

It's not completely ridiculous to agree that one or two out of 1♠-2♦-2♠, 1♠-2♦-2NT, and 1♠-2♦-3♦ can be passed. (With one partner, I have the agreement that the first two are passable, as an escape route with "11 opposite 11".) It's a somewhat uncommon and old-fashioned agreement.

 

But in an unknown partnership playing SA, assume all of these will lead to a 2nd bid by responder.

True. In fact I'd say it isn't uncommon to find people who play 2nt specifically as nf. If you play strong nt then 2nt can be used as 12-14 balanced and a hand with 10-11 that bid 2/1 may then pass it. I know it isn't what SAYC says or what most people here would say is SA, but it is relatively common in the wild IME.

[1eyedjack]

I think if you look back far enough in time, and for that you will need the Hubble telescope, then in Acol the sequence 1♠-2♦-2♥ was non-forcing. I don't know of any serious players who play it that way any more. Even in England.

[Old York]

If you were playing Acol, or a similar natural system, then your hand is too strong to respond 1NT. In Acol this shows 6-9hcp and denies Spade support

You could make an immediate invitational 2NT response, but that is stultifying and may be confused with Jacoby2NT, so you were correct to bid 2♦

 

The main point is that you should not be ashamed of your hand. You have 11 total points, which should be enough to invite game in hearts or no-trumps, depending on partner's rebid

 

Traditional Acol defined 1♠-2♦-2♥ as non-forcing, but it was rarely passed by good players

Modern Acol defines this sequence as "forcing to 2NT" so 2♥ cannot be passed

 

Tony

[Finch]

If you were playing Acol, or a similar natural system, then your hand is too strong to respond 1NT. In Acol this shows 6-9hcp and denies Spade support

You could make an immediate invitational 2NT response, but that is stultifying and may be confused with Jacoby2NT, so you were correct to bid 2♦

 

The main point is that you should not be ashamed of your hand. You have 11 total points, which should be enough to invite game in hearts or no-trumps, depending on partner's rebid

 

Traditional Acol defined 1♠-2♦-2♥ as non-forcing, but it was rarely passed by good players

Modern Acol defines this sequence as "forcing to 2NT" so 2♥ cannot be passed

 

Tony

No.

 

In Modern Acol (to the extent there is such a thing):

- A 2/1 response does NOT promise a second bid, so that responder can pass after, for example, 1S - 2C - 2S

 

- Playing strong NT, 1S - 2C - 2NT (showing a weak NT) is also not forcing. In old-fashioned Acol, 1S - 2C - 2NT was not forcing even if 2NT showed 15+, but many (although by no means all) Acol players play that as forcing.

 

- However, most good players play opener's change of suit (not a reverse, not at the 3-level) as forcing for one round, so that 1S - 2D - 2H is forcing (for example). Responder can make a number of non-forcing bids over this:

 

2S shows a minimum 2/1 with no particular fit. Although it usually has a doubleton spade in 5-card major style, it could have a singleton on a very bad day.

 

2NT is invitational, about a good 10 to a poor 12

 

3H is invitational, with 4-card support

 

3D is invitational with a decent 6-card suit, also about 9-12 HCP

 

3S is invitational with 3-card suport (note in England this is NOT forcing)

[Tomi2]

If you were playing Acol, or a similar natural system, then your hand is too strong to respond 1NT. In Acol this shows 6-9hcp and denies Spade support

You could make an immediate invitational 2NT response, but that is stultifying and may be confused with Jacoby2NT, so you were correct to bid 2♦

 

The main point is that you should not be ashamed of your hand. You have 11 total points, which should be enough to invite game in hearts or no-trumps, depending on partner's rebid

 

Traditional Acol defined 1♠-2♦-2♥ as non-forcing, but it was rarely passed by good players

Modern Acol defines this sequence as "forcing to 2NT" so 2♥ cannot be passed

 

Tony

No.

 

In Modern Acol (to the extent there is such a thing):

- A 2/1 response does NOT promise a second bid, so that responder can pass after, for example, 1S - 2C - 2S

 

- Playing strong NT, 1S - 2C - 2NT (showing a weak NT) is also not forcing. In old-fashioned Acol, 1S - 2C - 2NT was not forcing even if 2NT showed 15+, but many (although by no means all) Acol players play that as forcing.

 

- However, most good players play opener's change of suit (not a reverse, not at the 3-level) as forcing for one round, so that 1S - 2D - 2H is forcing (for example). Responder can make a number of non-forcing bids over this:

 

2S shows a minimum 2/1 with no particular fit. Although it usually has a doubleton spade in 5-card major style, it could have a singleton on a very bad day.

 

2NT is invitational, about a good 10 to a poor 12

 

3H is invitational, with 4-card support

 

3D is invitational with a decent 6-card suit, also about 9-12 HCP

 

3S is invitational with 3-card suport (note in England this is NOT forcing)

are you allowed to double your partner then to make a forcing call?

or is there some forcing pass tha requires opps to balance and you can bid you good hands?

or is there some rule, that responders in ACOL systems ALWAYS have 10 or 11 points? :)

 

just checking my bidding box to see if there is a forcing bid available in that system, where the partnership could have 40 hcp devided in nealy all ways...

[Old York]

or is there some rule, that responders in ACOL systems ALWAYS have 10 or 11 points? :)

Only in the context of a 2 level response by an unpassed hand

We use the "Rule of 14" to determine if a hand is strong enough to respond at the 2 level.

HCP+Length longest suit >= 14

This is a good rule of thumb

 

And there is such a thing as "Modern Acol"

 

http://www.acolatbbo.org.uk/sundries/stdengmodacol2006.pdf

 

Tony

[kenberg]

Basically, two questions arose from this hand:

Should my partner  have shown his strength by bidding 3♥ after I showed my 10+pts?

Is 2♥ (a new suit) from partner always forcing? 

 

We need to hear comments

Answering in reverse order: The new suit is forcing. Thus opener need not bid 3H. A bid of 3H should show something special. Probably a good 5-5 hand. Yes, some would play it as a stiff heart and a diamond fit but I think that's another story, so I would say it's a good 5-5. This can be useful. With a marginal 5-5, opener will bid 2H and then 3H. With good, he can jump immediately.

 

One way of thinking about the 2H bid: If responder lacks hearts, he will need to bid again. If responder has hearts, the hand just got better. You have an opening hand facing a two level response and now you have found a fit. Rarely will pass be right and even if it is you won't be sure, so you may as well get the benefits of playing it as forcing.

 

 

Now I think 1H-2D-2NT is a different thing. If this is to be forcing, and many here and elsewhere say that it is, then someone has to exercise some restraint. If opener has a 12 count and responder has a 10 count, and no fit is found, 2NT may be the last makable contract. SAYC suggests using pretty solid openings, and maybe responder should be waiting for an 11 count before bidding 2D. But of course a lot of people open pretty light these days. Then what? With a regular partner, you should probably make your own choice. I suppose most people would say responder must bid over 2NT as well, but I think it should be open to discussion. It's easy to imagine getting too high.

[ggwhiz]

The key point to my mind is still, if you can't take another bid, you should have bid 1nt instead of a 2 over 1.