What does this double mean?

[gnasher]

1♣   dbl  pass 1♠

pass pass 2♣   dbl

 

Until today I thought there was only one sensible way to play this double. What does it mean?

[aguahombre]

Old fashioned informative? Informing partner that the opps have found their 4-3 fit and I don't think they can make it.

[gwnn]

should be penalties I think... we found our 'fit'... maybe

 

xxxx

x

xxx

KJTxx

[helene_t]

In this particular situation, advancer can just bid a red suit so he must have at least three clubs for this double. If opps' suit had not been clubs, I suppose t/o would make more sense.

[jdonn]

I think it's competitive and value showing. Imagine a hand like Axxx xxx Kxx xxx. You don't want to insist on spades, but partner can very easily have a 5 card suit that you want to compete in. Also maybe he has one of those 3433 wonders that I like to double on and he can pass.

[aguahombre]

Yep, it depends on whether the original double was a takeout double.

[Fluffy]

I think penalty makes no sense, they found a fit, and have equal or greater strenght being at the 2 level. That leaves some sort of take out.

[Jlall]

4333 with a good hand

[Echognome]

4333 with a good hand

I know you mean relative to his previous bidding, but how good a hand can he have given his 1♠ call last round? I would assume 1♠ is non-forcing, so he is limited. If he had a 4333 hand with club values, might he have chosen 1NT instead of 1♠ (I'm imagining something like xxxx Kxx xxx KQx). So would this be a 4333 with no club wastage and top of range for 1♠? Something like KJxx Kxx Qxx xxx?

[jdonn]

Gnome, see jdonn post!

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty.

 

If I have a 2nd suit (hearts or diamonds), I can bid this suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: You also can call the double optional.

[bluecalm]

The problem is with hands :

ATxx

KJx

Txx

9xx

 

Do you really want to pass ? I don't think you are happy with 2♠ on earlier round either.

 

ATxx

Qxx

Qxxx

9x

 

Not happy 2D bid I believe... Would be better to double (if t/o).

We will land in superior 2♦/2♥ quite often after dbl.

[aguahombre]

ur second one is an easy 2d, unless opposite one of josh's doubles, because they might still have only a 7 card fit :P

[Codo]

penalty

I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

[shevek]

Takeout, whenever they bid & raise. Yes, can make a case for this to be one of the exceptions but better for tempo & harmony to keep it simple.

Say their fit is diamonds. Then you might have 4-3-2-4 and like to double for tko. Even more so if their fit is hearts, etc.

It's a mistake to think you can both work these out at the time.

[helene_t]

penalty

I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I think the modern trend is that with 4333 you can have as much as 9 points, maybe even 10.

 

OTOH if you have a hand suited for a penalty double you don't want to pass and have p bid 2♦.

 

I dunno.

[pooltuna]

penalty

I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one :)

[aguahombre]

penalty

I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one :)

And did you two Pool your thoughts?

[pooltuna]

penalty

I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one :)

And did you two Pool your thoughts?

I was just in Roland's school :)

[gnasher]

Until today I thought there was only one sensible way to play this double.

The meaning I had in mind was what Josh, Justin and others suggested: values without anything sensible to bid, so 4333 in this sequence. If it had been

1♦   dbl  pass 1♠

pass pass 2♦   dbl

the double would also have had to cover 4xx4 shapes.

 

I was surprised to see one of England's best players double here with a 4=4=4=1 7-count (on which I would have bid 2♥). Another of England's best players left it in with a 3=4=3=3 13-count containing ♣Qxx, so presumably he was expecting either balanced values or pure penalties.

 

Then Frances told me that she thinks it's for penalties, so I thought I'd better find out how the rest of the world plays it. I'm not sure that I'm any the wiser.

[jdonn]

I don't see that the arguments for penalty in this case are any different or more convincing than they are in the multitude of other cases where expert consensus is to play a double as values with no sensible action. Yes there are (rare) occasions you have a trump stack and can't nail them. So what? Sometimes partner doubles for you and you get them anyway, and sometimes you just accept an undoubled penalty (which is fine!), but you never leave yourself without a good option on a competititve hand with values.

 

I think the only difference in this case is that it's less thought about and less widely accepted.

 

Actually I thought of a reason you would even less want to play this double as penalties. You already didn't pass 1♣X for penalties, and that was before a raise. How likely are you to want to nail 2♣ for penalties after finding out responder has club support?

[Jlall]

Penalty is fine in this specific auction. Probably if I had to make an agreement and there were no memory constraints ever, I would slightly prefer penalty. However, on every similar auction like 1D X p 1S p p 2D X, and 1H X p 1S p p 2H X I would MUCH prefer to play the X as takeout, and I have never made any distinction for this one auction, and in general hate making agreements for 1 auction that go against your entire set of meta agreements for similar auctions.

[Jlall]

I don't see that the arguments for penalty in this case are any different or more convincing than they are in the multitude of other cases where expert consensus is to play a double as values with no sensible action. Yes there are (rare) occasions you have a trump stack and can't nail them. So what? Sometimes partner doubles for you and you get them anyway, and sometimes you just accept an undoubled penalty (which is fine!), but you never leave yourself without a good option on a competititve hand with values.

 

I think the only difference in this case is that it's less thought about and less widely accepted.

 

Actually I thought of a reason you would even less want to play this double as penalties. You already didn't pass 1♣X for penalties, and that was before a raise. How likely are you to want to nail 2♣ for penalties after finding out responder has club support?

You are extremely unlikely to ever pass 1C X, even with 5 good clubs and 4 spades. Partner simply has too wide a range of hands for an initial double to make that right (like I don't think many expert players would pass with Axxx xx xx QJ9xx).

 

Additionally, even though double is penalty, partner is allowed to bid now with 4 spades and a stiff club since your hand is limited, and you've shown 4 spades (assuming you don't play the auto raise with 4 spades system that seems popular now). You get to have your cake and eat it too this way.

 

Additionally, with 4333 and a max, it's not that important to be able to bid, since partner can freely balance with 2D if he has 3451, can freely balance with 2S with 4, and can freely reopen X with 3442 and extra values. If he has 3442 and minimum values, passing out 2C is probably fine.

 

Additionally, everyone keeps talking about their opponents "fit" but to my eyes they have not shown a fit yet, RHO never has 5 clubs here, and LHO has shown 3+ clubs. They could easily be in a 7 card fit.

 

Additonally, RHO has advertised that he has a yarborough, and LHO has advertised a minimum, and 2C X is not game, so there is a high reward and low risk for making a penalty double with 4 good clubs here on something like Axxx xx xx KJTx. And again, I think it is easily possible to have 5 clubs on this auction.

 

The nature of the opponents bidding that makes it very easy for partner to balance over 2C also makes it much more likely that we have a lucrative penalty.