Unusual?

[aguahombre]

Rather than hijack a Laws string ---

 

Since 2C Precision is an opening bid in strength, should 2nt directly over it be unusual for the reds -- with 3C for the Majors? If so, should the weak or very strong agreements still apply (if they apply over 1-bids)?

 

I know it is in several partnerships. The question is whether it should be.

[blackshoe]

You could play Roman jumps.

 

3♦ is the reds, 3♥ is the majors, 3♠ is the blacks. I suppose then 3♣ might be "bid 3NT with a stopper", and 2NT would be natural.

[MFA]

2NT should be natural or it will be too hard with a strong notrump kind of hand.

 

3♣ for majors, 3new preemptive.

 

I don't like the weak or very strong treatment in general for unusual NTs. I prefer a continuous strength range where I give up on the very weak (and very dangerous) hands, so that the two-suiter is always reasonable. Advancer then takes overcaller seriously in the rest of the bidding.

[dellache]

I'd play 2NT = nat (semi) BAL, (15)16-18 for sure !

What is the frequency (and the real need ?) of showing 5+5+ reds ?

[Fluffy]

I am sure I prefer to play natural

[aguahombre]

If I knew the answer, or had a firm opinion, I would not have asked the original question. But, from the standpoint of both frequency and danger -- isn't a natural 2NT over an opening hand different from a natural 2NT over a weak two, if in both cases it shows a 1NT opener?

[gwnn]

they dont always have a proper opening hand, a lot of the times they just have 6 clubs and want to mess with your head. :) of course there's a difference between frequencies but not so big (I think).

[dellache]

If I knew the answer, or had a firm opinion, I would not have asked the original question.  But, from the standpoint of both frequency and danger -- isn't a natural 2NT over an opening hand different from a natural 2NT over a weak two, if in both cases it shows a 1NT opener?

DANGERS :

if you compare the situation to "2Nt over weak 2" using quick and dirty approximations when you have the same HCP-range "R" as #2 :

- your RHO will often have 3 more HCP in average than the weak version ;

- it means that both CHO and LHO will have 1.5 HCP less in average ;

- so it also means that your side has only 1.5 HCP less in average.

 

So, considering the dangers, I would tend to have only a little more than when I overcall over a weak 2. The fact that your honors are probably well placed over the honors of the other side has also probably a positive effect.

 

BTW, if I overcall 2NT with say 16HCP, my RHO will have 12 in average, so it means my side will have 22 HCP in average. That's making 2NT very playable, and you have to balance the fact that sometimes pard has 0-4 (you might go for some number depending of what LHO has) with he fact that he has sometimes 8+ (making 3NT a good bet).

 

I'd say 16-18HCP is OK.

 

FREQUENCY :

Very few of my oppos play a precision 2C here, and I would guess the frequency of both 2NT-NAT and 2NT-RED combined with a 2C opening are VERY LOW (my guess is that 2NT-RED has by far the lowest frequency, if you decide on reasonable HCP ranges). That's also why I would certainly be happy with a 16-18 NAT-2NT, and would not spend some time doing simulations in order to decide if 17-19 is even better or not :).

[Siegmund]

Over precision 2C I think you can make a case for natural being better. That said, I play it as unusual anyway, just since "natural only if the opening is weak" is straightforward and guarantees no accidents, and I know I want it to be unusual opposite the other 11+ 2-level bids like Flannery and Roman.

 

I think we could make a much stronger case for unusual over a 2D, 2H, or 2S opening (including Precision 2D) than we can over a 2C opening.

[bluecalm]

As almost everybody plays 2C precision in Poland I have some experience against it.

I think 2NT as natural is a must. You can sure pass if non vul vs vul and hope to collec t a lot of 100's or 1000's if partner reopens (especially if 2C may be only 5clubs and responder stretches to find major fit often) but most of the time you need that bid.

 

3♣ for majors, 3new preemptive.

 

I think that jumps to 3D/3H/3S should be natural and constructive, not preemptive. One of the most common bidding accidents in Poland though :P

 

they dont always have a proper opening hand, a lot of the times they just have 6 clubs and want to mess with your head.  of course there's a difference between frequencies but not so big (I think).

 

Yeah, this is the very reason I prefer constructive jumps. Opener too often has xx xx QJx KQJxxx especially 3rd seat and it's difficult to bid reasonably without constructive means (especially 2NT).

As to 3C I would play that as majors. Not frequent for sure but overcalling 2S with AKJxx AQJxx x xx really sucks.