cnszsun Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 2/1 system:1H-2C2H-2S2N-3H3N-4N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Have to know more about your agreements about 2/1 auctions. In mine (such as it is) hearts are trump; opener showed six, responder bid around diamond shortness with better than a splinter, and 3NT was "serious". So, 4NT is just keycard for hearts. Cetainly others will disagree with every part of what I just said, because they have better methods. And, they will surely explain them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Quantitative. Regardless of how many hearts you think either player has shown (5 and 2 in what I consider standard bidding) it would be very easy for responder to bid 4♦ over 3NT to agree hearts if he wanted to bid blackwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnszsun Posted January 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Quantitative. Regardless of how many hearts you think either player has shown (5 and 2 in what I consider standard bidding) it would be very easy for responder to bid 4♦ over 3NT to agree hearts if he wanted to bid blackwood.Exactly what i thought. My hand is Axxx Ax Ax KQJxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old York Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 2/1 system:1H-2C2H-2S2N-3H3N-4N Opener has shown a maximum hand already by bidding 2NT?The bidding up to 2♠ seems fairly clear, but all of the following bids are ambiguous I suppose it depends on agreed methods, but a weaker hand might have rebid 3NT, because this sequence is already GF (fast arrival)I would not be happy to assume responder has failed to splinter, he may hold a stiff Ace or King Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 I suppose it depends on agreed methods, but a weaker hand might have rebid 3NT, because this sequence is already GF (fast arrival) You may well be right in guessing the agreed methods, and I am sure that a lot of players bid this way, but personally I find the principle of fast arrival a flawed concept when bidding it opposite an unlimited hand. It is fine if you know that there is no slam on the cards, but just to leap a level of auction to limit your hand as general-purpose minimum when there may still be slam on does not sit well with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Fast arrival shouldn't apply here. With an unknown p I would assume 2♥ = catch all, basically any minimum without four diamonds, or a good hand with long but modest hearts, or maybe 6♥4♣, maybe 15+ balanced with a leach in a pointed suit.2♠ = four spades, at least "in principle".2NT = natural, maybe either 12-14 or 18-19, possibly a 6322-type.3♥ = 4306 or 4315, possibly ♥Hx 3NT = (non) serious may apply here if 3♥ promised 3-card support but I would assume 3NT to be natural, as responder can assume 12-14. 4NT = quanti, unless we have agreed that 3♥ promised 3, in which case it is probably RKC. Those are not my preferred methods as I like 2♦ rather than 2♥ to be catch-all. In that case, 2♥ shows 6 and 4NT is RKC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 agree with josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old York Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 I dont get it :P Opener has been forced to make 3 rebids, and yet we seem to have no real clue as to his strength or distribution Had we forseen this, then we might as well bid1♥-2♣2♥-2♠2NT-4NTas the best chance of avoiding a mishap.... or just "follow the flock" and bid 6NT? Tony Edit:IM(very)HO the 3♥ bid was to blame. Opener has shown a diamond stopper, so the question of ruffing value in the heart slam seems irrelevant(3♥ may be 3 card support, so 3NT may be "serious" and not natural?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich-b Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 4NT is quantitative, because :1. 4NT directly over a natural 3NT should be played as invitational, any exceptions will cause misunderstandings.2. Not only that a fit was not found in any suit, it was actually established that there is no fit anywhere (surely not in ♥s, which are 5-2). In positions where a fit was not found , 4NT should be quantitative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 4NT is quantitative, because :1. 4NT directly over a natural 3NT should be played as invitational, any exceptions will cause misunderstandings.2. Not only that a fit was not found in any suit, it was actually established that there is no fit anywhere (surely not in ♥s, which are 5-2). In positions where a fit was not found , 4NT should be quantitative. I think you and JDonn have nailed this pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hi, What was 3NT? Ok, assuming no frills: 3H showed only secondary 2 card support, 3NT was to play, that means opener will have only 5 card heart suit, otherwise... That means 4NT is quantitative. Since opener, showed a min opener with 2NT, the quantitative ask is based on enough HCP to make 6NT playable oppossitea max of 12-15, which means responder is showing somethinglike 17/18. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 I dont get it :) Opener has been forced to make 3 rebids, and yet we seem to have no real clue as to his strength or distribution Had we forseen this, then we might as well bid1♥-2♣2♥-2♠2NT-4NTas the best chance of avoiding a mishap.... or just "follow the flock" and bid 6NT? Tony Edit:IM(very)HO the 3♥ bid was to blame. Opener has shown a diamond stopper, so the question of ruffing value in the heart slam seems irrelevant(3♥ may be 3 card support, so 3NT may be "serious" and not natural?) 2NT limits openers hand. And the 2NT bid also tells something about openers shape, 2NT is either 5422 or 6322, ... 5422 is not possible anymore, since with a 4 card suit in clubs or spades,opener would have bid either 3C or 3S, i.e. opener is showing 6322. Because of this, it could be argued, that 3H does set trumps, and 3NT is something like serious 3NT, but this would be a fairly fine tuned system. With kind regardsMarlowe PS: The above logic assumes, that openers rebid is NT with 5332 shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 quantitative. is there any alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Raise of 3NT to 4NT cannot be anything but a quantitative invite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 If 3♥ 100% promises fit, then 4NT should be RKCB. Otherwise quantitative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 rubbish deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Codo: 2/1 system: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Codo: 2/1 system: HNY but which message did you try to send me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 well if 2♣ set a GF, 3♥ is GF with hearts isn't it? how else can you show a good raise? are you trying to say that 1♥-2♣2♥-2♠2NT-3♥ could possibly ever imply better support than 1♥-2♣2♥-3♥ ? who has these agreements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 well if 2♣ set a GF, 3♥ is GF with hearts isn't it? how else can you show a good raise? are you trying to say that 1♥-2♣2♥-2♠2NT-3♥ could possibly ever imply better support than 1♥-2♣2♥-3♥ ? who has these agreements? Hi, Look at one of my responses. It can be argued, that opener showed a 6 carder in the first seq., so thata supp. showing 3H bin in the firts needs only be based on 2 cards. The second seq. typically showes 3 card support. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Even if 2♥ promised 6 then 4NT should be quantitative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 well if 2♣ set a GF, 3♥ is GF with hearts isn't it? how else can you show a good raise? are you trying to say that 1♥-2♣2♥-2♠2NT-3♥ could possibly ever imply better support than 1♥-2♣2♥-3♥ ? who has these agreements? tx, yes now I understood that I wrote rubbish. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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