Please bid!

[jdonn]

Obviously 2♦ is the call that gives you the best chance of finding a fit -- it is your longest suit.

Come on now, you know that is not necessarily true. :)

[eyhung]

Obviously 2♦ is the call that gives you the best chance of finding a fit -- it is your longest suit.

Come on now, you know that is not necessarily true. :)

Ugh, I noticed that mistake and was about to edit it but you reply way too fast. Brain still hasn't woken up, apparently.

[jdonn]

I'm like a hawk. And hey that was 10 minutes! But yes obv you are smarter than that, get your coffee.

[mikeh]

Now, I am still ready to learn from experts and first 100 top world players and would like if somebody can explain me, after above mentioned FACTS, would D fit, as best, be easier found by biding 1NT, X or 2D?

 

You are asking the wrong question.

 

Bridge is NOT about finding your best fit. It is not even finding the safest contract.

 

It isn't always even about maximizing your scores by taking action that, in the long run, will result in the best outcome!

 

For example, in a short match against opps you rate to beat, you may settle for a second-best action because the best action also carries with it the highest variance....if it turned out wrong, you may lose so badly on the hand as to ruin your chances of winning, which were, absent disaster, good.

 

But VP scoring would change that approach as well, since you may want to maximize your vp total out of concern for other teams...not the one you are playing but other, competitive teams winning vps in other matches.

 

My opinion is that the great majority of real life experts would choose double on this hand because:

 

1. if we have game, double is more likely to find it than a 2♦ overcall

2. if the hand belongs to the opps, double is more likely to avoid a penalty double than a 2♦ overcall is

3. if we belong in a partscore, diamonds may be the most likely denomination, but EITHER hearts or clubs could be better or the same...by doubling we bring both those suits into the mix, while 2♦, on most partscore hands, will end up committing us to that suit, for good or ill.

 

(I don't mean to say that these are the only relevant issues, but I suspect that every expert would agree that these are 3 relevant issues...there are lesser issues such as partner going wrong on defend/save hands or being influenced on future hands by seeing what you bid 2♦ on this time...you are increasing the variance of that action....altho the counter is that double is hardly prototypical either).

 

Note that all of these are expressed in terms of 'more likely'.

 

No expert would suggest that double will ALWAYS work more effectively than 2[DI.

 

The truth is that this is an awkward hand to bid. It is 'wrong' for all 4 plausible calls. Too much to pass safely. Diamonds are wrong for an overcall. Spades and the overall strength are too weak for safety with 1N, and double delivers the wrong shape. This 'nothing quite fits' is a huge part of bridge altho it is rarely discussed in bridge bidding texts, where the tendency is to show hands that 'fit' the suggested action.

 

Part of becoming an expert is to acquire the judgment that allows a player to consistently pick the action that combines safety with aggression, sensitive to the form of scoring, the state of the match/event and the quality of the opps.

 

It seems to me, to the extent that I am an expert, that double is significantly the best choice of the 4 plausible actions for all of the reasons set out above.

[zenko]

I find this hand quite interesting for several reasons, I am 100% sure i would not ever bid 2D with it, but I feel this hand belongs to "I know it is not right, but.." category i.e, I think many players who should know better will in the heat of the battle reach for 2D card.

 

Another interesting angle is once when we decided 2D is not the right call, what is the correct way to approach the selection of an alternative? Dble on the first glance seems the best, but I am not comfortable with it at all, by trying to have as many options open, you really limit your ability to take advantage of any. The bottom line is that after dble it is very likely that your bidding troubles just begun, especially at MPs.

 

Bidding troubles on this board, that is, I will not even go into how much you will pay for it down the road, once your partner pegs you for a "mushy" doubler.

[Trumpace]

Bidding troubles on this board, that is, I will not even go into how much you will pay for it down the road, once your partner pegs you for a "mushy" doubler.

Why?

 

Partner will know you had a clear problem on this hand and chose the option which you thought best. Why would that peg you as a 'mushy' doubler?

[bluecalm]

once your partner pegs you for a "mushy" doubler.

 

I don't want to think about what partner will peg me for if I overcall 2♦ with that...

[zenko]

I like to believe that my partners double with less than 4 cards in the other major only if they are very strong, or they have a hand very suitable for playing in 4-3 from my side, and neither of those apply here. What I am saying you either use the bid that describes your hand the closest (1NT), or stay out of it (at least for now) and pass. Doubling and hoping that the partner will say somehow divine that you do not have support for neither of his two 4 cards suits (if he has say 3424, which is quite possible) strikes me as bit too much.

[Little Kid]

Most players seem to prefer Double over 1NT. Although I don't particularly feel very strongly about 1NT or X, I picked 1NT at the time I was reading the post and felt it was better. What you think will or will not happen if you bid 1NT? When will double work better than 1NT? I'm not trying to advocate the 1NT bid, just trying to understand why it is better to double.

 

These were my thoughts when I saw the problem:

 

- Strength:1♣ was opened in 3rd seat (possibly not full opener), my honours are very nicely placed though! The Kx, AQ AQ honour cards will probably carry their weight, making game a possibility even opposite a passed hand. The extra 5card ♦ suit adds some further value to the hand.

I didn't feel comfortable I can show my strength safely if I start with a double so we could miss game. With the game bonus in mind, I liked 1NT because I get my overall strength of my chest immediately. In the worst case scenario of it getting doubled, I can still run to 2♦.

 

- Shape Unfortunately I only have 1♠ stopper as well as ♠ shortage. The likelihood of the opponents raining down a bunch of spades before I can set up ♦s (or another suit) seems quite real, especially with opener having the points to get in to play them. If I bid 1NT and LHO passes, I rate partner to have a (partial) ♠ stopper at least some of the time (JTx/T9xx/Qxx).

Hopefully LHO will save me from some hopeless 1NT contracts by raising to 2♠. The problem is that if he does, I will wish I had doubled to tell partner about my ♠ doubleton. We may well belong in 3♣/3♦/3♥ but with no way of getting there now. For the purpose of getting to the right strain, double seemed to show this hand much more effectively than 1NT.

Although you may end up in 2♣/2♥ contracts after a double when 1NT scores better?

 

What did I miss that makes double the prevailing choice? Maybe you just need to have played these kind of hands to know double is right or maybe I am just way too optimistic about making game! :)

[Jlall]

When I read this, I coulda sworn the shape was 2452...was it edited?

[Cyberyeti]

If we give partner the sort of flattish 6-7 count he IMO is most likely to hold, x leads to a 4-3 fit in ♥ or ♣, 1N plays there as will 2♦. From that point of view I prefer not to double. Whether I bid 1N or 2♦ would depend on the nature of my overcalls by partnership agreement.

[helene_t]

When I read this, I coulda sworn the shape was 2452...was it edited?

No, at least no since MikeH's first post.

[Jlall]

Ok, well I thought it was 2452, guess I was on drugs when I read this the first time, I think 1N is fine with 2353... 2D is still terrible though!

[pooltuna]

Ok, well I thought it was 2452, guess I was on drugs when I read this the first time, I think 1N is fine with 2353... 2D is still terrible though!

quick... hurry ... EyeMasters is having a sale :D

[Fluffy]

I am impressed, seems that we are going down to explain what a double shows lol.

 

this is what I teach to beginners, double shows:

 

3+ hearts

3+ diamonds

3+ clubs

 

12+ HCP

 

As opposed to what 2♦ show:

 

6+♦

 

12+ HCP

 

So if we couldn't take 1NT into account, we have to chose between lieing or telling the truth, the answer is plain obvious.

[bluecalm]

My first impression was that 1NT is terrible but now I actually like it. Nothing intelligent to add. It just seems that it works well when I went through the hands.

 

As opposed to what 2♦ show:

 

6+♦

 

12+ HCP

 

Yeah... While watching past vugraphs yesterday (my greates addiction recently) I saw Lauria overcalling 2♦ opposite unpassed partner and being vulnerable with:

- ATx T987632 Txx, he should take some beginner lessons :-), or maybe he just likes straight flushes... (Vanderbil final 2004, segment 1, board 9, maybe it was a misclick by vugraph, but that seems unlikely seeing rest of the bidding/play). I also saw them overcalling 2♦ with all sort of crap like : xxxx A KJTxxx JTx on regular basis but I am yet to see them (or any other world class player) overcall 2♦ on 5card suit with 5-3-3-2 shape. That just won't happen. I actually doubt 5card overcall is in the menu at all. Axx KQxx AJxxx x is double opposite 1♠ for Italians all day long (they play equal level conversion). I don't know about A KQxx x AJxxx though, it would be very useful to actually hear some world class players talking about it more and not just making wild guesses from seeing hands without commentary/knowing their agreements.

 

It seems that not everybody shares this view though : http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...x-and-more.html

 

This maybe some ammunition for 2♦ bidders :)

[gwnn]

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

[bluecalm]

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

 

Lol, I've never thought he would. I am just talking about 5card overcalls in general. Overcalling on the OP hand is ridiculous I stated it many times in this thread.

[Free]

I'd bid 1NT, although I wouldn't mind Dbl. I knew that Dbl would get more votes on this forums :) Both Dbl and 1NT will probably get you to a similar spot if LHO raises.

 

Imo 2♦ on this hand is plain awful. 2♦ should be a 5 card only if there's absolutely no other decent call available and you want to get your suit in. Here you have 2 good alternatives and not a great suit anyway!

[Codo]

you are completely misreading Ulf Nilsson if you think he would 2♦ on this hand.

Of course he would not- the suit is too strong. :P

[helene_t]

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

 

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

 

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

[Codo]

Mikeh puts it quite well: There is no clear right or wrong bid with this hand.

All 4 possible bids (pass, double, 1 NT and even 2 ♦) can be huge winners or losers.

 

But double is most likely to earn you the most imps/lose the fewest imps opposite as many hands as possible and this is not close.

 

1 NT is wrong if you have to play 3 NT or maybe even if you have to play 1 NT if partner has no help in spades.

It is equal if partner has 5 hearts or help in spades, so it is seldom a winner often the same score and too often a loser (compared to X).

 

To play 2 Club as natural over a 1 NT wins if you can play 2 clubs. Quite a small target. To use this bid for a better structure must be a huge winner.

 

I prefer to play simple transfer after our 1 NT overcall with transfer to their suit is stayman. Easy and often good enough but other methods are obviously fine too.

[zenko]

I agree 1NT is by far the best bid. If once in a blue moon I go for a number so be it.

 

Regarding should 1NT-2C be natural I think it makes a lot of sense to play it natural if the opening bid was a major suit, and if it was a minor to play "system on" (Stayman+transfers).

[Fluffy]

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

 

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

 

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

my 2 cents:

 

I play everything natural to be able to play 2♣ and to be able to play 2♥ from the right hand (not right on thios particular deal, but often better to put the strong hand on lead)

 

 

The reason I dislike 1NT is because RHO has 5+ spades and we only have one stopper.

[pooltuna]

Stupid question: I knew that dbl would get more votes than 1NT, and I would dbl for that very reason myself: I think partner will expect me to dbl with this hand.

 

But why is dbl better than 1NT? Does 1NT overstate the strength of the hand?

 

I think 1NT is more likely to get us to the right partscore if we play a 2♣ response as natural, which is my preferred treatment although everybody seems to disagree with me so I am probably wrong. 1NT may be the wrong partscore if it is passed out, but only if partner has a 4-card diamonds which he would bid in response to a dbl, or if a 4-3 fit hearts or clubs plays better than 1NT. If 1NT gets doubled and p doesn't run, we can bid 2♦.

for me it is understrength. While I play 1NT as 15-17 I play a NT overcall as slightly stronger a good 16 to 18.