inquiry Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 You -- LHO --PARTNER- RHO1C - - (1S) - - Pass - - (2H)Pass - (pass) - DBL - - (pass)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Penalty hand for ♠s, but now that they bid 2♥ it's optional imo: pass if you have ♥, otherwise bid something nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Penalty pass of ♠, letting you decide what to do. Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanrover Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 With a new partner, and no agreement, I might take a look at my hand. With a singleton Heart, then perhaps the pen x of H looks more likely :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Assuming you play negative doubles, I'd say partner can't have a penalty double of hearts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 i voted takeout...first, we have no suit.. second, no negative double (can't be hearts imo)... i think if i have diamonds i'm bidding, if i can stand diamonds (or can't), i return to clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 I protest! You blindfold me when this is a problem that depends on what opener has :D If he has... AxxxKxxQxKJxx it's probably take out for diamonds, with club tolerance. If he has xAxxAQxxKJxxx it might very well be a penalty double of 1S! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 You can't protest :D .I don't think the meaning of the X chances depending on your hand. Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Penalty of S. Please make the wrong decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Trpltrbl, there are situations where this is the case, for example: 1H pass 1NT pass pass double. This shows either a penalty double with long hearts or a balancing takeout without hearts. The actual problem is not a lot different, but I think it's just long spades and optional. Gerben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Takeout - i play that any double is takeout unless we duscussed it first, and this one we didnt. If i would have looked for the optimal bidding for this specific sequence (which i dont because i dont want to remember a set of rules for each sequence) i would probebly double for penalty and bid 2sp with the diamond+club hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 I agree with deanrover and whereeagles, althou the meaning normally is penalty in ♠, it may depend on your own cards, not because repodner has forgotten, but because he hopes your cards will tell you what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 I agree with deanrover and whereeagles, althou the meaning normally is penalty in ♠, it may depend on your own cards, not because repodner has forgotten, but because he hopes your cards will tell you what is going on. Where did you learn such a tretment for doubles ,when you have to look at your hand to know which kind of double it was? This idea of two way doubles is probebly something you catched from bad players who instead of learning the meaning of doubles , trying to guess them from looking at their hands, and i advice you to forget it, you dont have to look at your hand inorder to understand the meaning of a double. This doesnt mean two way doubles can never be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 I first learned about two-way doubles on Mike Lawrence's "Complete book on balancing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Ok, let me weigh in on what I think about this double. There are several options here. I beleive with diamonds and a club tolerance here, responder would not double, but rather, would bid 2NT akin to scrambling 2NT. For me this 2NT can never be natural given the intial pass. With a spade penatly pass I would dble 2♥ not bid 2NT (see below), Second, with a heart suit sufficient to double 2♥ for penalty and values for penalty double of 2♥ (especially at imps, but no matter), responder would have made a negative double over the 1♠ overcall. So a penalty double of ♥s is not possible. So that leaves third, a hand that wanted to make a "penalty pass" 1♠ hoping opener would reopen with a double. Now over 1♥, the double is showing "cards" and a spade stack. This would put this double into the "optional" category. Opener with ♥'s can pass, or can make some other intelligent call. As for a penalty double of 2♥ without the values for a negative double. What kind of hand would that be? Something maybe like.. ♠xxx ♥QJT98x ♦xxx ♣x ? Would you double 2♥ with that, or would you pass, happy to know that the opponents are probably not in their best spot and equally happy to know that it is not you playing some number of ♥'s? I believe the poll shows a difference of opinion not so much on what double shows (all but one so far as takeout either showing spades as anchor suit or diamonds), but rather what 2NT would show. Those who say the double shows a penalty double of ♠ probably play 2NT in the balance seat as "scrambling". Those who play the double show diamonds with a ♣ tolerance would probably bid 2NT with the hand with a normal penalty double of 1♠. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 A spade suit and values.I think this is very very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanrover Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Is it possible that partner could have something like xxxQJT987xxxx ? And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 No it's not possible. Pass and pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 IMHO, luis is correct, if partner held the hand deanrover showed, the correct bids are pass over 1♠ and pass out 2♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 You can't X with that. Mike :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 I believe the poll shows a difference of opinion not so much on what double shows (all but one so far as takeout either showing spades as anchor suit or diamonds), but rather what 2NT would show. Those who say the double shows a penalty double of ♠ probably play 2NT in the balance seat as "scrambling". Those who play the double show diamonds with a ♣ tolerance would probably bid 2NT with the hand with a normal penalty double of 1♠. I agree with Ben here. The double and 2NT go hand-in-hand. The problem is you aren't likely to have discussed either of these bids with partner. You might have a general agreement about 2NT in competition. In that case, it's the 2NT that defines your double. Without prior agreement I think partner has a penalty pass of ♠, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has the minors. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 if the x isn't for hearts, and i agree it can't be, what does partner bid without an expectation of setting 2H? 2nt himself as scrambling? return to clubs? does the doubler show *any* suit besides spades? in other words, without a hand suited to play 2H x'd, what bid does opener make and why? removed hand by edit, already answered :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Is it possible that partner could have something like xxxQJT987xxxx ? And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand? No, if you passed initially, you pass again. I however would bid 2♥ negative 'Free' bid (I invented this :) B) - joke)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Optional, because you know that your p can have max 4 cards in ♥, penalty for ♠ of course, but max to inv hand. Trap pass with GF hand is bad idea.Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Is it possible that partner could have something like xxxQJT987xxxx ? And if not, why not? And what should partner do with that kind of hand? Never dbl for penalty for reopen position, unles you have good rebid on any p bid. You can dbl for penalty only if previous penalty dbl by your side, because now all subsequent dbls will be penalty too. The reason of such way is playing with direct t/o doubles, trap passes and reopen t/o doubles - normal way now.With hand in example you have happy pass ;) .Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.