Client versus Browser

[aniko2]

Hi,

 

Tonight, I discovered that my partner and I were using different mechanisms to access BBO. This had been the source of much confusion, i.e.

 

"just push the button!"

"I don't see that button"

 

I use the web interface. I'm guessing that the web interface will be the source of future BBO development, and that the client software will eventually be deprecated. Thus, my partner should start accessing the web interface directly.

 

Is this valid reasoning? Are there good reasons to use one interface versus the other?

 

Thanks,

 

Anne

[mink]

Hi Anne,

 

when the web interface started, there were a lot of reasons not to use it, though for basic playing and kibbing it has always been suitable, and the number of reasons decreased with every new version.

 

Today, there is not much left where the windows interface is better or has features that are not available in the web interface. Here are some:

• Your chat is saved to your local disk.
  
• The hands you play are saved to your local disk (they are saved in the web, too, no matter what interface you use)
  
• You can chat to lobby, but only few people will hear you, as most have lobby chat disabled
  
• The list of kibitzers at your table is accessible more easily
  
• Some lists update automatically, while you have to click a button for the same list to update in the web interface
  
• Player's profiles are always displayed without delay
  
• you have the option to use GIB's double dummy analysis when kibbing
  
• There is a library, chat rooms and a lecture hall
  

On the other hand, there are a lot of features and advantages exclusively located in the web interface. One of the main advantages of the web interface for BBO is that it generates much less internet traffic than the windows interface.

 

Karl

[aniko2]

Karl,

 

Thank you for such a complete and well considered answer. Happy Holidays to you and yours.

 

Anne.

[fred]

I use the web interface.  I'm guessing that the web interface will be the source of future BBO development, and that the client software will eventually be deprecated. Thus, my partner should start accessing the web interface directly.

Hi Anne,

 

That was a good guess.

 

Our current position is this:

 

- We are not actively involved in improving the Windows client in any way.

- We are heavily involved in improving the web-client in many ways.

- We are hoping that we never have to release another new version of the Windows client.

- It is not clear how realistic this hope is.

- As the number of people logged in to BBO increases, the performance of the Windows client decreases. At some point it will become unusable. We don't know the location of this point. I am guessing that, for most PCs at least, we are not very close to it.

- We have no plans to retire the Windows client.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mr1303]

At the moment, I still very much prefer the Windows client rather than the web browser, for the following reasons.

 

1) I have still not got used to navigating around the web browser.

2) The chat function seems much more user friendly on the windows client.

3) I like the hover function which allows you to see a user's profile

4) It seems easier to review previous hands in the Windows client.

 

I must admit, at the moment I would prefer to be able to stick with the Windows client.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[P_Marlowe]

As always, it depends, what you want to do, but if you want to use

the GIB in the partnership bidding room, they are free for Web, and

you have to pay in the win version.

 

But you can open a table with the Web, activate the GIB, and your

partner can use the Win, logging your hands.

You can log your hands in the Web version as well, but you need to

explicitly safe the Movie, the Win does the safe automatically, if

you have activated the mechanism, since I am lazy, ... it will take

lots of features to convince me to switch, but than I am a late adopter

anyway.

 

So there are even reason to use a mix .-)

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[fred]

3) I like the hover function which allows you to see a user's profile

There is an option for this in the web-client. Click the blue "Options" button at the top of the screen, then "More options" in the menu that appears, then "Advanced options" in the window that appears. Then check "Show profile on mouse over".

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Stephen Tu]

The major thing I am missing on the web client that I can do on the PC is the ability to play with a live partner vs. 2 GiBs. Is there a way to do this that I haven't been able to find, or will you be adding the feature at some point?

[TylerE]

If the flash client was packaged so it could be run outside of the browser, I'd be more inclined to use it, but I really hate how it ties my BBO session to my browser session. Browsers tend to crash....and I can't accept that taking my BBO session with it.

[A2003]

Web version is good for Vugraph watching. You can open many tables and watch all in the same time. Windows version, You can watch only one table.

[TimG]

4) It seems easier to review previous hands in the Windows client.

I like reviewing hands in the Web client because they can in the same window as the current hand. I find that more convenient that switching windows.

[fred]

The major thing I am missing on the web client that I can do on the PC is the ability to play with a live partner vs. 2 GiBs.   Is there a way to do this that I haven't been able to find, or will you be adding the feature at some point?

You can do this already. We tried to make it easier than the corresponding operation in the Windows client. Sorry that apparently we didn't succeed in your case.

 

If you start a table and sit (in the Main Bridge Club for example), you should see buttons that say "Click for robot" on each of the other 3 seats. If you have already payed to rent robots (1 BB$ per week I think), clicking one of these buttons will result in a robot being placed in the appropriate seat. If you have not already payed to rent robots, clicking one of these buttons will take you through the rental process.

 

If you want to play with a partner then I suggest you reserve the seat opposite your seat for him/her.

 

It might be smart to make your table invisible while you figure this out for the first time, especially if you have not already rented robots. In this way nobody will bother you while you are getting set up. Once everything is set up you can click the "Table" button (below the table itself) to edit table properties in order to make the table visible. You actually don't need to make the table visible since reserving a seat for your partner will make the table visible for him/her.

 

If you run into problems, please post the details and I will try to help.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Stephen Tu]

Thanks, I see now. I didn't see the "click for robot" buttons before since they don't appear until you actually sit down yourself. I was trying to set up the table beforehand with 3 seats reserved for partner & robots as one can do on the Windows client, but didn't actually sit down myself since I was trying to seat the robots first. Kept on looking for robot buttons before giving up & firing up the windows version since my partner was waiting.

 

It's arguable from a UI programming angle that the buttons shouldn't appear/disappear in the same area, that there should just be two buttons "click to sit" with "click for robot" next to it for the table host.

[kgr]

I use the web interface.  I'm guessing that the web interface will be the source of future BBO development, and that the client software will eventually be deprecated. Thus, my partner should start accessing the web interface directly.

Hi Anne,

 

That was a good guess.

 

Our current position is this:

 

- We are not actively involved in improving the Windows client in any way.

- We are heavily involved in improving the web-client in many ways.

- We are hoping that we never have to release another new version of the Windows client.

- It is not clear how realistic this hope is.

- As the number of people logged in to BBO increases, the performance of the Windows client decreases. At some point it will become unusable. We don't know the location of this point. I am guessing that, for most PCs at least, we are not very close to it.

- We have no plans to retire the Windows client.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

The windows client would not be required if it gives same functionality as the Web client. What is the reason for the difference (Technical difficulty to implement function in the web client OR another choose of the way the go)?

I use the windows client because I prefer that my hands are saved on my PC for easy access for later review...and I guess that the reason that this isn't foreseen in the Webclient is that it is more difficult to access the PC in the Web-client?

[fred]

The windows client would not be required if it gives same functionality as the Web client. What is the reason for the difference (Technical difficulty to implement function in the web client OR another choose of the way the go)?

There are some functions in the Windows client that would be technically difficult to implement in the web-client. There are some functions in the Windows client that we have intentionally not implementing in the web-client, either because we think that such functions were "mistakes" or because we have decided that working on other aspects of the web-client should be higher-priority. There are some aspects of the Windows client that are not included in the web-client because they are not scalable - they won't work at all once the number of people logged in to BBO reaches a certain number.

 

Meanwhile, there are a lot of functions in the web-client that are not available in the Windows client and several areas of the web-client that we think are much better than the corresponding areas in the Windows client. This is because we try to learn from our mistakes, listen to feedback from our members (especially new members), and also because more people, time, and thought went into the web-client design.

 

I use the windows client because I prefer that my hands are saved on my PC for easy access for later review...and I guess that the reason that this isn't foreseen in the Webclient is that it is more difficult to access the PC in the Web-client?

 

That is correct. For now the "myhands" site is the only option web-client users have if they want to save copies of their hands locally. At some point we might try harder to address this issue, but for technical reasons it will probably never work quite as smoothly as it does in the Windows client.

 

Note that it is also possible to review hands you have played through the web-client itself (My BBO, Hands and results, Recent hands).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[LionHeart1]

Hi,

I am not only a player but a TD and so I use the Director function of BBO, too. I found that there is a function missing in the web version and another one differing from client version.

 

The missing function of the web version is to manage the membership of a private or public club.

 

The differing function is to create a tourney with a participant list saved on my PC. I know that there is a difference between running a downloaded program and using an application running under a browser, but there must be a solution to upload or import a name list from a file on my PC. Now I should type the names one by one, this is acceptable if there are some 10 names, but in case of several 100 names it is impracticable.

And one more thing, perhaps this is a bug, if I create a tourney and later I want to modify it in the web version, the date and time for the tourney is the actual date and time, not the real date and time of the tourney.

Best regards

Zoltan

[fred]

The missing function of the web version is to manage the membership of a private or public club.

Yes, this is missing. Adding this functionality to the web-client is not high on our list of priorities. When we first started BBO, the notion of private and public clubs seemed to be a good idea, but it hasn't worked out that way for a variety of reasons. I am not sure what long term future (if any) there is on our site for these clubs, but given that almost all existing clubs are either not used or misused, this is not something we rate to spend a lot of time on in the near future.

 

The differing function is to create a tourney with a participant list saved on my PC. I know that there is a difference between running a downloaded program and using an application running under a browser, but there must be a solution to upload or import a name list from a file on my PC. Now I should type the names one by one, this is acceptable if there are some 10 names, but in case of several 100 names it is impracticable.

 

Well you did type them all in one by one in the Windows client :)

 

If you send me your include/exclude list(s) by e-mail (fred@bridgebase.com) and let me know the user ID that you use for TDing, I *might* be able to arrange to have these loaded into the database that handles this function for the web-client. I can't make any promises about being able to do this for sure (or being able to do it immediately).

 

And one more thing, perhaps this is a bug, if I create a tourney and later I want to modify it in the web version, the date and time for the tourney is the actual date and time, not the real date and time of the tourney.

The date and time that the web-client displays is always expressed in your own time zone. I am not sure if this explains the issue you raise. If you still think there is a problem, let me know and I will investigate and fix if appropriate.

 

Thanks for your comments, Zoltan. We have made a serious effort to make the TDing experience better in the web-client. Getting feedback from TDs is helpful and appreciated.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[LionHeart1]

The missing function of the web version is to manage the membership of a private or public club.

Yes, this is missing. Adding this functionality to the web-client is not high on our list of priorities. When we first started BBO, the notion of private and public clubs seemed to be a good idea, but it hasn't worked out that way for a variety of reasons. I am not sure what long term future (if any) there is on our site for these clubs, but given that almost all existing clubs are either not used or misused, this is not something we rate to spend a lot of time on in the near future.

 

The differing function is to create a tourney with a participant list saved on my PC. I know that there is a difference between running a downloaded program and using an application running under a browser, but there must be a solution to upload or import a name list from a file on my PC. Now I should type the names one by one, this is acceptable if there are some 10 names, but in case of several 100 names it is impracticable.

 

Well you did type them all in one by one in the Windows client :wacko:

 

If you send me your include/exclude list(s) by e-mail (fred@bridgebase.com) and let me know the user ID that you use for TDing, I *might* be able to arrange to have these loaded into the database that handles this function for the web-client. I can't make any promises about being able to do this for sure (or being able to do it immediately).

 

And one more thing, perhaps this is a bug, if I create a tourney and later I want to modify it in the web version, the date and time for the tourney is the actual date and time, not the real date and time of the tourney.

The date and time that the web-client displays is always expressed in your own time zone. I am not sure if this explains the issue you raise. If you still think there is a problem, let me know and I will investigate and fix if appropriate.

 

Thanks for your comments, Zoltan. We have made a serious effort to make the TDing experience better in the web-client. Getting feedback from TDs is helpful and appreciated.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

And one more thing, perhaps this is a bug, if I create a tourney and later I want to modify it in the web version, the date and time for the tourney is the actual date and time, not the real date and time of the tourney.

The date and time that the web-client displays is always expressed in your own time zone. I am not sure if this explains the issue you raise. If you still think there is a problem, let me know and I will investigate and fix if appropriate.

 

I mean, when I modify a tourney, the current date and time will be shown instead of the date and time of the tourney.

 

Zoltan

[fred]

I mean, when I modify a tourney, the current date and time will be shown instead of the date and time of the tourney.

Thanks for clarifying. This will be fixed in the next version (likely coming soon).

 

In the mean time you can get the correct time/date to display by adding and then subtracting a minute from the starting time.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[chicken]

following this thread i just made my own little tries to decide if it is worth switching.

i didnt manage to upload hands from a directory on my harddidk to a teaching table, a function one definately needs if using bbo to teach (i use it for online and reallife tuition) i think.

only possible upload was from my favorite hands a folder which obviously was empty. did i do something wrong?

[paulg]

following this thread i just made my own little tries to decide if it is worth switching.

i didnt manage to upload hands from a directory on my harddidk to a teaching table, a function one definately needs if using bbo to teach (i use it for online and reallife tuition) i think.

only possible upload was from my favorite hands a folder which obviously was empty. did i do something wrong?

You did nothing wrong.

 

The web client cannot access your hard disk at the moment (principally a feature of the Flash technology used), so you cannot upload hands.

 

The Deal source feature, not available in the Windows client, does make it easier to create your own hands and the Hand Editor can be used to enter specific hands. But it is not DealMaster Pro and not being able to upload old vugraphs remains problematic.

 

Paul

[onoway]

Yes, this is missing. Adding this functionality to the web-client is not high on our list of priorities. When we first started BBO, the notion of private and public clubs seemed to be a good idea, but it hasn't worked out that way for a variety of reasons. I am not sure what long term future (if any) there is on our site for these clubs, but given that almost all existing clubs are either not used or misused, this is not something we rate to spend a lot of time on in the near future.

 

 

I for one would be extremely disappointed to see the clubs (which are actively being used) go. They are a refuge from the weirdnesses in Main as well as a place to pursue like interests such as the TP or ACOL clubs, and the teaching events which really won't work very well outside. I am told that rubber bridge is not accommodated in the flash version. It seems in some ways BBO is shrinking the variety of options offered and abandoning the less popular aspects. One of the things which I have touted to everyone I know is how BBO accommodates everything bridgey that anyone could possibly want, so there is no need to look elsewhere for anything. It is understandable that the less used areas would not be first in the list of things to work on, but to learn that some may well be dropped entirely is another order of things. It is disappointing that that seems to be what the future holds.

[fred]

I for one would be extremely disappointed to see the clubs (which are actively being used) go. They are a refuge from the weirdnesses in Main as well as a place to pursue like interests such as the TP or ACOL clubs, and the teaching events which really won't work very well outside. I am told that rubber bridge is not accommodated in the flash version. It seems in some ways BBO is shrinking the variety of options offered and abandoning the less popular aspects. One of the things which I have touted to everyone I know is how BBO accommodates everything bridgey that anyone could possibly want, so there is no need to look elsewhere for anything. It is understandable that the less used areas would not be first in the list of things to work on, but to learn that some may well be dropped entirely is another order of things. It is disappointing that that  seems to be what the future holds.

 

Of the several dozen private and public clubs there are a small number of public clubs that have value and there are even fewer private clubs that are used properly. The rest are either not used at all or are misused/abused.

 

Of course we will never get rid of areas of BBO that have value, but something about the whole notion of clubs on BBO is clearly broken. If and when the time comes that we try to address this issue, you might see some major changes. If and when that happens, of course we will only make changes that we think will be good for our members.

 

The number of programmers we have and the amount of time that each of these programmers spend on work are finite numbers. How exactly we should best allocate these programmer-hours is an extremely difficult problem for a number of reasons. No matter how we prioritize our time there are going to be BBO members who are "disappointed" with our decisions.

 

Of course we don't like to disappoint anyone, but using your examples, if our choices manage to disappoint the less than 1% or so of BBO members who like to play at rubber tables or the handful of BBO members who will have to continue to use the Windows client if they want to manage (or in most cases mismanage) their private clubs, then that is not so bad. This is especially true if being disappointed means that these people will simply have to wait until we get around to paying attention to the (somewhat obscure) features of the software that happen to be important to them.

 

I am not in any way suggesting that we always make wise decisions when we prioritize our development resources, but I can promise you that the single most important factor we consider is "how can get the most bang for our buck in terms of improving the overall user experience?".

 

We remain completely committed to continuing to improve our software and service and to the concept of BBO remaining best possible online bridge site for as many bridge players as possible.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[onoway]

AH I misunderstood as I took "not sure what long term future if any" to mean that BBO was considering dropping the clubs entirely, and that was what I was moaning anxiously about. It is certainly understandable that you would like to put your efforts into areas used by the majority of your clients first, and also that you would drop clubs in which nobody ever plays. If dropping all the clubs is not on the future agenda then I apologise for misunderstanding.

I yell sometimes but I really do appreciate all you and your team have done, It is remarkable and you all have every right to feel a huge sense of pride and accomplishment. Thank you for everything you offer us and the very best wishes for 2010 and beyond to you and to the others on BBO who have worked so hard ; the result of whose efforts have given us so much pleasure (and pain, but that's bridge) over the last few years.

[spwdo]

i try on occasion this new version but it is a disappointment each time.

i cant find to set my language to English, somehow it comes up in Dutch. dunno if i done it myself but i cant alter it or cant find where anyway.

What i wonder is: the web client means we all are playing on a server where in the windows version much of the calculations are done on people own pc? does it therefore not make the web-client more expensive for bbo?

 

i `m completely wrong in my thinking probably but i would hate to see the old bbo disappear. If someone was to explain to me why it is impossible to maintain the windows version side by side to this new thing i would welcome that. If only for numbers its impossible to run the windows version cant you disable new users the windows version?

 

i would appreciate me being the last of the mohicans and enjoying the windows version till last day of my BBO-appearance