TimG Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Neither side vulnerable. ♠ 6♥ AT743 ♦ Q6♣ K7642 1♦-(3♠)-? Is this hand good enough (and otherwise right) for a negative double? I have intentionally left out the form of scoring, if it makes a difference, please answer for IMPs and MP. Please also mention if it would make a difference if 1♦ is limited to 10-15 (Precision-like) or 11-17 (Polish-like). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Neither side vulnerable. ♠ 6♥ AT743 ♦ Q6♣ K7642 1♦-(3♠)-? Is this hand good enough (and otherwise right) for a negative double? I have intentionally left out the form of scoring, if it makes a difference, please answer for IMPs and MP. Please also mention if it would make a difference if 1♦ is limited to 10-15 (Precision-like) or 11-17 (Polish-like). yes, though I think you have to push this hand much like you would with a Limit Raise hand having to bid game instead of the normal LR. For example 1♥ (2♠) where 3♥ is now a constructive raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act. Yep, and I don't like it unless it works --but gotta. Anyone want to give up on a natural 3NT here, and use double for a more convertable hand and 3NT for this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 What else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Yes, double is clearcut. Anyone want to give up on a natural 3NT hereNo thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'd rather bid 4♥ than 3NT. double is not perfect but there is no option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'm assuming that the negative doublers (everybody!) expect the double to lead to 4♥ on a 5-3 fit with some frequency. What considerations go into opener's choice of whether or not to bid 4♥ when he holds exactly three hearts? I'm guessing that with a spade stopper along with the three hearts, opener would tend to bid 3N. Certainly with a non-Ace stopper such as Kx, Kxx, QJx. What about Ax or Axx? Does the quality of the three-card heart suit matter? Without a spade stopper, what is the typical minimum three-card holding with which opener would bid 4♥? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I won't pass 3N after double, I would bid 4♥. Double does not promise 4 hearts so I think partner will bid 4♥ with 3 hearts very rarely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I don't expect partner to bid 4♥ with three, and I'll pass 3NT if that's what he bids. That might be right opposite three hearts, or even opposite four. We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x. Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands. If we were to bid 4♥ over 3♠, we'd increase the chance of getting to 4♥ when it's right, but eliminate the possibility of getting to any other contract. That seems a bad exchange. Double followed by 4♥ is a possibility. That suggests flexibility, but I don't think the hearts are good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x. Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands. We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double? Won't opener very often have a balanced 12-14? I don't think we should be too optimistic about making 3N or 4♥ (unless we have a 9-card fit), nor can we be particularly confident about beating 3♠, when opener has sort of what he's expected to have. Maybe you're saying that -50 or -100 is the result we're aiming for against a making 3♠, or at least that this is a possible way doubling can win even when we go minus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double? I hadn't really thought about it, but I'd probably raise 4♣ to 5♣. I'd pass 4♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Double. All vuls, all forms of scoring. There is much to be said for the principle that he who is short in the opponent's suit stretches to act. Agree with JDonn :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 What of S-xxH-A98xxD-QxC-K98x still in negX ? Keep going lower hcp/shape until pass. What higher until 4H? 4C? I have no <13 hcp hands in 1D, so bottom strength combined is known or likely. Thus I can judge are we being preempted out of a game? Or did 3S get to their partial hoping we overbid/misbid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shevek Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 We might belong in 3NT, 4♥, 5♣ or 5♦, or it might be right to defend 3♠x. Double at least gives us a chance of getting to the right contract on these hands. We might also belong in 4♦ or 4♣. Are you saying that you will be driving to game if opener bids 4m over your double? Won't opener very often have a balanced 12-14?No, would have opened 1NT. Isn't that part of the reason we agreed to play weak notrump? That is, to give responder more confidence in these auctions, knowing that 1x = a good suit or a good hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Double followed by 4♥ is a possibility. That suggests flexibility, but I don't think the hearts are good enough. This is the only action I can think of; a sort of three-places-to-play 4♥. Come to think of it Double and pull 3NT to 4♣ must be three-places-to-play as well. Perhaps that is what you have here, and pulling to 4♥ would be more like x AKTxx xx QJxxx. Interesting problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 What of S-xx H-A98xx D-Qx C-K98x still in negX ? Keep going lower hcp/shape until pass. What higher until 4H? 4C? I have no <13 hcp hands in 1D, so bottom strength combined is known or likely. Thus I can judge are we being preempted out of a game? Or did 3S get to their partial hoping we overbid/misbid?Interesting... You may keep the same HCP but vary the shape. For example .... ♠ - ♥ Axxxxx ♦ Q ♣ Kxxxxx ♠ - ♥ Axxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx ♠ - ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxxx ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx ♠ xx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx ♠ xxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxx ♠ xxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qxx ♣ Kxx ♠ xxx ♥ Axx ♦ Qxx ♣ Kxxx Or you may keep the same shape and vary the HCP ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxxx ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxxx ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ KJxxx ♠ x ♥ Axxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx ♠ x ♥ Kxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Kxxxx ♠ x ♥ Kxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ Qxxxx ♠ x ♥ Qxxxx ♦ Qx ♣ QxxxxIMO a b = 4♥, c = 4♣, d e f g = _X, h = _P. i ii iii iv v =_X, vi vii = _P It might also be interesting to learn the effect of varying intermediates, honour quality, and location.I agree with Paul that if partner rebids 3N, you should probably bid 4♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Double for sure. My only problem is what to do after 3nt from partner; 4C and 4H are both possible imo.After generating some layouts I believe 4C after 3nt is winning action.We can still have 6 hearts for double and 4H right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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