A system to pick apart

[awm]

Seems we haven't had a bidding system to pick apart recently. Here's my latest idea, not too exotic because I'd like to be ACBL mid-chart legal:

 

1♣ = 15+ any, with transfer-symmetric-relay style followups (other openings except 2♦ 10-14)

1♦ = either 5+♦, or 4♦/5+♣, or 4♦ in a three-suited pattern

1♥ = either 5+♥ with a 4+ side suit, or 4♥ in a three-suited pattern with short diamonds

1♠ = 5+♠ with a 4+ side suit

1NT = 12-14 balanced including all (24)25 patterns with 5♣ and 5M-332

2♣ = 5+♣ and a 4M and a singleton, or 6+♣ without 4♦

2♦ = weak only multi

2♥ = 6+♥, not 4♠

2♠ = 6+♠, not 4♥

 

Continuations after 1♠:

 

1NT "forcing" (opener always has natural rebid)

2♣ GF relay

--> 2♦ rebid natural and symmetric style except 5440/5044 replace 6142/6241 which open 2♠

--> 2♥ rebid natural and symmetric style losing a step

--> 2♠+ rebids show clubs in symmetric style except 5404/5044 replace 6124/6214

2♦ natural, invitational

2♥ limit raise of spades

2♠ normal single raise

2N shapely limit raise with 4+ support (3♣ asks shortage)

3♣, 3♥ natural invitational

3♦ artificial mixed raise (diamond invite bids 2♦)

3♠ weak

 

After 1♥:

 

1♠ natural F1

--> 1N shows 4+♦; now 2♣ is 4th suit invitational

--> 2♣ natural, now 2♦ is 4th suit invitational

--> 2♦ shows a good 2♠ bid, could be 3-card support

--> 2♥ natural

--> 2♠ natural, worse than 2♦

--> 2N shows 5♥ and 6+♣

--> 3m shows 6-5 hands

1NT semi-forcing

2♣ GF relay

--> 2♦ natural, symmetric style except 0544/4540 replace 1642/2641 as above

--> 2♥ both majors, next 2NT shows 4414/4405 and 3♣+ symmetric lose a step

--> 2♠+ clubs in symmetric style as above

2♦ limit raise of hearts

2♥ single raise

2♠ shapely limit raise with 4+ support (2NT asks shortage)

2N artificial mixed raise

3m natural invite

3♥ weak

 

After 1♦:

 

1M natural F1

1NT GF relay (any shape) or INV relay without a 4M

--> 2♣ shows at least one 4M (after relay 2♥=spades, 2N+=hearts, 2♠=any 4441-type)

--> 2♦ diamond one-suiter (includes 5332), symmetric style

--> 2♥+ show both minors (symmetric style), note big fit opposite INV hand

2♣ natural 5+♣ fairly weak

2♦ normal single raise, can occasionally be on 3♦ support

2M natural invite

2NT constructive diamond raise

3♣ natural invite

3♦ weak

 

After 2♣:

 

2♦ INV+ relay

--> 2♥ shows 4♠; now 2♠ relay and as below; 2N/3♣/3♠ are NF invites

--> 2♠ shows 6+♣ single suited; 2N asks shortage (high/mid/low/none min/none max)

--> 2N shows 4♥ and 5-6♣ minimum (3♣ NF, 3♦ relay asks shortage and ♣ length)

--> 3♣ shows 4♥, max, high shortage (3♦ relay and steps like below)

--> 3♦ shows 4♥, max, 1417

--> 3♥ shows 4♥, max, 3415

--> 3♠ shows 4♥, max, 2416

--> 3N shows 4♥, max, 3406

2M natural 5+ F1

2N constructive or GF raise

3♣ preemptive raise

 

After 2M:

 

Cheapest bid asks shortness (high/mid/low/none min/none max). If followed by 3M, this is INV. If followed by new suit, it's a cuebid looking for slam in opener's major. Direct new suits are forcing and 2♥-2NT shows spades. 2M-3M is preemptive. Jumps are splinters.

 

--------

 

Why is this system supposed to be good? Here are some potential advantages:

 

(1) The intermediate 2M openings are potentially very tough on the opposition.

(2) The ability to limit-raise the 1M openings at the two-level can lead to nice stops.

(3) Natural openings are potentially easier to raise than standard 1m or precision 1♦.

(4) Full symmetric-style relay over most openings for slam auctions, not too much memory load.

[Jlall]

Looks good, I like it.

 

I only saw one minor improvement I'd make to the structure immediately, I think 1S-2D should be hearts, inv (and 1S 3D natural), seems like that's a more important hand to get off your chest, plus the transfer style has some advantages when you're 2 suited obv or maybe 2-5 in the majors could bid like that then bid 2S.

 

The most obvious weakness of your system imo is the 2C opener. In my experience with that 2C opener, it is just really hard to handle, and whatever you do may work poorly, even if you have a really nice system over it, since you're forced to guess immediately a lot of the time. This will no doubt be your worst opener, which is fine obviously, every system has a worst opener. Looks like you've gone the route of a forcing 2M response to this, so you're just going to end up in a lot of bad partials imo, and sometimes you will miss major suit games because you have to pass 2C but have a 5-4 major suit fit.

 

I always thought that the 1N opener is just too wide of a range of shapes in Fantunes, so I also think that about your system. That said you will have a lot of gains from hiding your shape also because it's gonna be hard to defend 1N-3N type auctions, but again you might end in some stupid partials, and perhaps miss game when you have to pass 1N and partner is 5242 or whatever. Overall this is not nearly as big of a problem as your 2C opener to me though, but you know I'm a fan of opening 1N a lot lol.

 

Obviously your 1M openers are just ridiculousssssly good, 1S especially. They are so well defined, and they are still gonna be quite frequent. Not sure if you'd like this, but imo you might open even lighter than suggested for 1M specifically, because it is just so good, and you'd like to increase the frequency a bit. At the very least upgrade a lot or something lol. Obviously when you up the frequency you lower the effectiveness, but I think it would still be quite effective. 1H might suffer SOMETIMES from being 4414 in competitive auctions, but whatever it's rare enough that it doesn't matter. I would really love to open 1M in your system.

 

Your 1D opener is also very very good, same as 1M I'm just not as orgasmic about it since it's less preemptive and you need to bid less aggressive games and stuff when you don't have majors.

 

As far as strong club, I think it's a net winner, but I think making it 15+ is worse than 16+ since you're more vulnerable to preemption which makes competitive bidding harder. Obviously you have a lot of experience with strong club though, and it just comes down to personal taste whether its 15+ or 16+ or 17+ so I won't harp on it too much. I will say again though that I think you can open a lot of 9s if your upper range is 14 rather than 15 though and get away with it.

 

The 2 bids are obviously a wild card, and are a double edged sword (it makes life hard on them, and makes life tough for you if it's your hand). IMO they will be very good though, sure it might be tough sometimes but having it defined as 6+ cards makes competitive bidding easier, and it's a good start on constructive bidding, and obviously the preemptive effect if it's their hand is great, or if it's a competitive hand you shut them out or make them go too high a lot. Overall, I really like the 2 bids. They are way better than Fantunes imo.

 

I don't like multi but it's necessary in your system so it's fine, especially since most people don't know how to defend against it. Even if people did, you're not losing that much.

 

As far as relaying it rather than bidding semi-naturally, that is again personal taste, so I won't even comment.

 

I would love to play this systems basic structure but not relay (again, just not my personal taste, not saying it's wrong or right) some time. I think it would be a lot of fun, it would get you in there a lot, and it would put a lot of pressure immediately on the opponents. IMO pressuring them = making them make mistakes = winning bridge. This system has pressure written all over it, but with CONTROL, and with pretty well defined starting bids. I just hope I don't open 2C very often ;)

[Jlall]

Sorry I had a thought, what are you going to do with 1 suited major suit hands that you would normally open 1M and rebid 3M with, but aren't 15+, like AKT9xxx AJx xx x. Are you just gonna open 2M and hope it works out, or are you going to upgrade to strong club? Possibly open some of them 4M if they're really light HCP wise? I foresee that hand type becoming a problem. Maybe this is why you made your 1C 15+

 

Also if you play this system in a practice match vs good opps lemme know how it goes, really curious to see how it works out cuz I'm pretty enthusiastic about your idea.

[awm]

Agree with Justin that 1♠-2♦ showing hearts is probably better. However, the one observation is that the auction 1♠-1N-2♠ doesn't really exist in this system, so responder can always bid the forcing notrump and then bid hearts, whereas 1♠-1N-2♥ leaves responder unable to bid diamonds at the two-level. Still, being able to show 5/5 invites and the like specifically should make the transfer a net winner.

 

Typically I open hands like AKT9xxx AJx xx x with 4♠ anyway. I have found that opening hands in this range with a good seven-card major at the four-level is a net win, and this is also backed up by a substantial bridge browser search. If ACBL would let me, I'd play 3NT=good 4M bid to distinguish these hands from weaker ones, but even without that the 4M opening seems to be good.

 

While I agree that the 1NT opening with many possible shapes and the 2♣ opening that only shows five are potential weaknesses, there are many top-level pairs who use this style of opening (Fantoni-Nunes and most polish club pairs for example). I suspect that the combination of 1♦ showing 4+ and 2♣ showing 5+ is a lot better than 1♦ showing 2+ (or even 1+) and 2♣ showing 6+.

[akhare]

Agree with the comments about the system so far. It certainly looks like something I would consider playing.

 

It won't surprise Midchart committee deems that playing 1♠ as *promising* a 4+ card side suit isn't legal or demands an impossible defence, but I will stop at that lest I derail the thread.

[Free]

I like it.

 

- I would put the 4=4=1=4 in 1NT however. I've played a homemade Fantunes sytem for a while where we opened 1NT with 11+-14 with every 5332/4432/4333/5422 (even 5M-4m but not 5-4M)/4441. It worked very well (opps don't expect you to hold singletons) and I have the impression our 1NT opener was a net winner.

- My first thought was also to use 1♠-2♦ to show ♥.

- I just wonder if it would be a disaster if you'd include the 6+M hands in 1M openings. You definitely must have a reason for this ;)

[awm]

Two reasons for the 2M openings. First, I think these openings are generally winners when they come up. Any time I can open 2M on a six-card suit with a fairly narrow point range, I expect good results. This pressures the opponents and usually partner can judge our own contract fairly well. Second, taking these hands out of 1M helps in a number of constructive and competitive situations, for example making the relay structure much more efficient.

 

Opening 1NT with 4441 hands is interesting, but ACBL is not going to allow such an agreement. I also find the idea that you get good results "because opponents don't expect you to hold singletons" ethically troubling.

[Free]

~snip~

I also find the idea that you get good results "because opponents don't expect you to hold singletons" ethically troubling.

It's not that they don't know it's possible (we alert 1NT and explain it), it's because they usually don't take the possibility into account. I should've expressed myself better. :)

[gwnn]

I think I prefer your 1♥=clubs system to this one but of course that system is illegal. But this looks fine too :) It reminds me of ulven who doesn't open 1M on 5332 unless it's a good suit.

[awm]

A few additional thoughts.

 

(1) It might help if the 2♣ opening was more limited in terms of strength, at least when holding only five clubs. Say 13-15 with 5♣/4M or 10-15 with 6+♣. Weaker hands with only five clubs can pass without much problem.

 

(2) Perhaps 1♣ should be 16+ unbalanced or 15+ balanced. This seems weird on the surface (a lot of pairs do the opposite) but it means that 1♣ is ridiculously often 15-17 balanced. This can help in competitive sequences. It also means we're opening our suits a little more often, say with 15-counts and even 16 with a singleton honor or the like. And it gives leeway to "upgrade" on a really nice unbalanced 15 and open 1♣ (whereas upgrading 14s might fall afoul of system regulations).

 

(3) The methods should be a bit different in 3rd/4th chair, because a positive response to a 15+ club is unlikely (most 10-counts open, except the balanced ones), because the weak notrump is riskier opposite a passed partner, and because GF relay is obviously impossible by a passed hand. How about:

 

1♣ 17+

1♦, 1♥, 1♠ all 4+ cards, normally a decent suit if only four, range something like 10-16.

1NT 14-16

2♣ same as before, except a good 5♣ can open this without a major, 10-16

2♦ still multi in 3rd seat, but becomes a natural "intermediate two bid" in 4th chair

2M still intermediate

 

Balanced hands with less than 14 points either pass (fairly safe actually) or bid a decent four-card suit at the one-level (or rarely a strong 5-card club suit at the two-level). Over the one level openings:

 

P-1♠-1NT can be up to 11 hcp

P-1♠-2m is natural

P-1♠-2♥ is limit raise (drury)

P-1♠-2♠ is normal

 

P-1♥-1♠ is natural

P-1♥-1NT can be up to 11 hcp

P-1♥-2♣ is natural

P-1♥-2♦ is limit raise (drury)

P-1♥-2♥ is normal

 

P-1♦-1M is natural

P-1♦-1NT is natural, very NF since 1♦ can be balanced here

P-1♦-2♣ is natural

P-1♦-2♦ is natural

P-1♦-jump is an invitational diamond raise with values in the suit bid

P-1♦-2NT is a natural invite with 10-11 balanced and implicitly shows 3-4♦

[olien]

I'm not sure the 1D-1N is legal since it might not have game forcing strength. I'm pretty sure the mid-chart says that relay systems are allowed provided it guarantees game forcing strength. Otherwise the system looks good.

[jdonn]

Personally I prefer to just have weak two bids, and put the 6+ major openings in the 1 major bids. But what you are doing isn't necessarily wrong, that's just my preference. I don't really care about having the relay after a natural opening bid.

 

After 1♥ p 1NT p, what is opener expected to do with 4414? With my first suggestion that could be put in 2♦ though that might be a bit of a waste. Then you are just getting very close to regular precision anyway.

 

I am a fan of the relay over 1♣ personally.

[wclass___]

Basically i think that expected benefit from 1♦/1♥/1♠/2♣/2♣/2M won't compensate drawback of 1♣/1N. It might sound too skeptical, but..

 

1♣ -- prefer 16+ strong club based systems

1♦ -- I would like that 2nd lowest opening bid would take care of more major tended hands.(1♦ = 5m+4M is an option)

6♦+ and 5m+4om m+ i consider as ''boring trash'' and highly prefer to put these somewhere further in opening bid list.

1M -- i open 1M to show that i have 5 card major, additional information about unknown 4 card is pretty irrelevant in general. This bid will not only help partner, but also for opponents. This is why i and some other bridge players don't like muidberg much.

I would like to be able choose between 1N and 1M when holding 5M332.

Generally it is a lack of flexibility.

[awm]

Here's a modification of the original idea here. This takes care of some of the complaints, although it may introduce other questionable things.

 

1♣: 15+ balanced or primary clubs, or 16+ any; some 15 hcp upgrades possible

1♦: 4+♦, if only 4♦ then some 4441 pattern, unbalanced; 10-15 hcp

1M: 5+M, roughly 9-15 hcp, promises a 4+ card side suit

1N: 12-14 balanced, including any 5332 patterns

2♣: 10-14 hcp with 6+♣, no 4+ card major(s)

2♦: multi, weak two in either major

2M: natural 11-15 (if 15 then not worth a 1M...3M sequence in standard bidding)

 

The interesting observation here is that there is no opening for 4414 hands, or for hands with 5+♣ and a four-card major, or for hands with 4♦-5♣ exactly. These hand types with less than 15 hcp start with a pass. Obviously this entails some problems, but it's worth noting that these are big problem hands in other strong club methods. In some cases these are opened at the two-level (basically wasting a two-level opener) and it's still not always easy to get to the right spot (especially if 1NT is that spot). The "canape" minor hands can easily lead to playing in the "wrong" minor suit if they are opened 1♦. "Standard" (natural) bidding obviously opens these hands 1♣, but this is basically an invitation to opponents to interfere (most people overcall a lot lighter than they open), and it's not like partner can raise the club suit easily since it's frequently only three in standard methods (some people even play two). Note that after passing, it's often fairly easy to describe such a hand by making a takeout double, or even bidding clubs (since club one-suiters tend to open 2♣).

 

Over 1♣, symmetric-style relays. Over 1♦:

 

1M, 1N natural

2♣ GF relay or unbalanced invite with no 4M

2♦ regular raise

2M natural invitational

2N natural invitational

3♣ natural constructive

3♦ preemptive

 

Over 1M:

 

1♠ natural

1N "forcing" but not a fitting hand and opener's rebid is always a 4+ card suit

2♣ GF relay

1♠-2♦ showing 5+♥, wide range of strengths

2M-1 good raise of the major (usually 9-12 hcp 3-4 card raise)

2M normal single raise, less than 2M-1 (roughly 5-8 hcp)

1♥-2♠ and 1♠-2N 4-card limit raise with side shortness (step asks shortage)

1♥-2N and 1♠-3♥ 4-card mixed raise

3m natural invite

3M natural weak

 

After partner passes:

 

1♣ 17+ (or 18+ if balanced)

1♦ 4+ diamonds, usually 10-16

1M usually 5+M, occasionally a decent four-card suit is fine, usually 10-16

1N 15-17

2♣ 5+♣, usually not a four-card major (open 1M)

2♦ still multi in 3rd chair; natural intermediate in 4th

2M still intermediate

 

After Pass-1♦/1M:

 

2♣ = natural with 10-14 hcp, 5+♣ and a four-card (unbid) side suit

Others basically the same as by unpassed hand (no relays except after 1♣ open)