BBO's WJ2005 Convention Card

[Oren Goren]

I would guess the first item has come up before but "convention error" didn't find it for me. Apologies.

 

A. On the WJ2005 "convention card" the continuation of the 3S response to the opening 2D seems to be wrong. Should be "weak two in hearts", right? (yes, "trivial".)

 

 

B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

 

So, please, what should the opener be?

 

oren

[TimG]

B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

We never hold this shape. At least not in combination with that number of HCP.

 

I suspect the answer is to open 1♣.

[Oren Goren]

B. The opening bid descriptions seem to show nothing available for 12 HCP and 4414.

We never hold this shape. At least not in combination with that number of HCP.

 

I suspect the answer is to open 1♣.

LOL.

 

Perhaps Poland's one and only ACBL-like restriction is no 4414 w/12 HCP?

[TimG]

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

[bluecalm]

Standard is opening 1D with any 4-4-4-1 shape with 4diamonds and 1C with exactly 4-4-1-4.

I don't know who made this convention card but it's pretty clear form any description of the system I saw (and I am from Poland so it's pretty obvious to me as I am playing polish club varietes all my life).

[Oren Goren]

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

 

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

[Oren Goren]

Standard is opening 1D with any 4-4-4-1 shape with 4diamonds and 1C with exactly 4-4-1-4.

I don't know who made this convention card but it's pretty clear form any description of the system I saw (and I am from Poland so it's pretty obvious to me as I am playing polish club varietes all my life).

It is the HCP condition combined with shape that leaves us no bid stated.

[bluecalm]

You should also open 1C with 4-4-0-5 shape and 11-14pc btw.

Jassem wrote about that case in wj2k booklet.

The reason is that you have easy rebid to any action of pd and you won't lose 4-4 major fit.

Theoretically you could be in trouble in sequences :

 

1C - 1D

1H - 2D (5-11pc, 5+D)

 

1C - 3D (here you have to pass and pray)

 

1C - 1D

1H - 3D (well.... pass again and pray even more)

 

but that never happens in practice :)

[bluecalm]

As to side note :

 

In some other versions of polish club if you have 4=4=4=1 shape you open 1D and you rebid 2nt in sequence :

 

1D - 2C

2NT* (4-4-4-1 exactly)

2D = 5D

2H/2S = 15-17, 5D-4M

 

with 4-4 minors (and 4-1 majors) and 12-14hcp or with 4diamonds and 5clubs you rebid 3C :

 

1D - 2C

3C (minimum, 4clubs)

 

This solution allows for precise auctions and is way better than this in wj2k version.

 

Also you may play 1D - 2H/2S as artificial (2H = 5S-4+H, 6-10pc and 2S = 6+clubs invitational is what Balicki-Zmudzinski play) which allows you to stop in 2NT is partner has dreaded 4=4=4=1 pattern

 

Unfortunately in wj2k 1D opening is 4+ which in my opinion sucks and just kills one of the advantages of polish club over standard (which is natural 1D opening basically always promising 5+ or sometimes 4 but then unbalanced).

[TimG]

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

 

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

I'm not sure I get your point.

 

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

 

A hand in the 15-17 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the medium variety of 1♣ shows an unbalanced hand with at least 5 clubs. Probably best to also open this hand 1♣, once again the lie that will likely work out best.

 

Maybe I have missed something that is particular about specifically 12 HCP and 4414?

[TimG]

In some other versions of polish club if you have 4=4=4=1 shape you open 1D and you rebid 2nt in sequence :

 

1D - 2C

2NT* (4-4-4-1 exactly)

2D = 5D

2H/2S = 15-17, 5D-4M

In WJ05, after 1♦-2♣

 

2♦ = five diamonds

2M = four of the major and four diamonds.

2N = four diamonds, balanced, no four-card major

3N = 4=4=4=1, 15-17

 

EDIT: corrected 2N, thanks to bluecalm

[bluecalm]

2N/3N = 4=4=4=1, 11-14/15-17

2♦ = five diamonds

2M = four of the major and four diamonds.

 

Not really.

While 2D is five diamonds it's in 12-17 range.

2H/2S are natural with exactly 4diamonds and 12-14.

2NT is natural without 4card major and with 4diamonds (12-14balanced).

 

I don't know what source you use. Mine is original wj2005 booklet.

 

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

 

Well... maybe that's according to that full disclosure cc but it has nothing to do with eithe wj2005 or with how polish pairs actually play.

(I mean it's not really a lie; 1c doesn't show balanced hand; it shows either balanced or 12-14 with 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5)

[TimG]

2N/3N = 4=4=4=1, 11-14/15-17

2♦ = five diamonds

2M = four of the major and four diamonds.

 

Not really.

While 2D is five diamonds it's in 12-17 range.

2H/2S are natural with exactly 4diamonds and 12-14.

2NT is natural without 4card major and with 4diamonds (12-14balanced).

 

Sorry, you are correct.

[bluecalm]

Still wj2005 is really bad.

If you have for example :

xx xx AJxx AKxxx

 

and bidding starts :

1D - 2C

????? you are in deep **** trying to show your suit and strength later because 3C is 15+ (and if that hand is too good then change it to something like : QJx x AJxx KJxxx)

Fortunately wj2010 is coming :-)

[TimG]

(I mean it's not really a lie; 1c doesn't show balanced hand; it shows either balanced or 12-14 with 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5)

WJ05 says of the preparatory 1♣: "With this variant of the opening it is 12-14 HCP balanced".

 

There is a later note: "I don't recommend opening 2♣ (Precision) with both 4-crd majors (4-4-0-5). Practice shows it's better to open 1♣, and bid on as if we have 4414 distribution." But, I cannot find any other mention of 1♣ including 4414 hands. How to rebid with 4-4-1-4, though rather straightforward, is not described (or at least I haven't found it).

[bluecalm]

But, I cannot find any other mention of 1♣ including 4414 hands. How to rebid with 4-4-1-4, though rather straightforward, is not described (or at least I haven't found it).

 

Yes you are right. There is nothing about that beside that later note.

The problem with wj2005 booklet is that it's meant as instrutction of how to go from wj2000 to wj2005. It's not really a comprehensive guide to the system but rather description of changes. Some things are just natural to any polish club player and they are not mentioned in the booklet.

 

Once a friend of mine (bridge newbie) wanted to learn the system (not a good idea) and he struggled with the simplest things like :

pass - 1S

2C = drury.

Pretty obvious for someone playing a lot but you really need to know what you are looking for to find it in the booklet. There is more situations like that with "obvious" (for polish players) situations.

WJ2000 was much better in this respect as it was more a comprehensive guide of how to bid using polish club. I am not sure if that book was translated to english though.

[TimG]

Was your reference to WJ10 in jest, or do you know of a project in the works?

[bluecalm]

There is even official poll for polish players regarding changes in wj2010:

http://ankieta.jassem.pl/

 

Unfortunately it's only in polish. I don't know when its due but I think it will be in 2010 :)

[glen]

... official poll for polish players ...

cute

[Oren Goren]

13-17 with that shape are also trouble, aren't they?

Hmmm.

 

It does have clubs so it is 11-14 HCP and 4414 that is trouble?

I'm not sure I get your point.

 

A hand in the 11-14 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the weak variety of 1♣ shows a balanced hand. 1♣ seems the best option, the lie that will likely work out best.

 

A hand in the 15-17 range that is 4414 can't be opened with 1♣ because the medium variety of 1♣ shows an unbalanced hand with at least 5 clubs. Probably best to also open this hand 1♣, once again the lie that will likely work out best.

 

Maybe I have missed something that is particular about specifically 12 HCP and 4414?

 

No, the 12 HCP was just an example. I was just elaborating on your post, having noted that "15+ Clubs" includes 4414. Hence it is 4414 and 4405 up through 14 HCP that isn't covered.

 

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

 

As to the 15+ clubs 1C, the definition in the WJ2005 file definitely says no. THE difference with WJ2000 is the change to 4+. I like this and the whole philosophy of WJ2005, which seems to be clarity and near-simplicity compared to other clubs.

 

I am working my way upwards on the openings chart so haven't seen the responses to 1C to know that the 4414 or 4405 hands are covered in the <15 HCP range.

 

Will see.

 

Thanks for joining the discussion!

 

oren

[Oren Goren]

I have now read the WJ2005 ( WJ05 ) file on www.bridgewithdan.com.systems and can report that the missing hands in the BBO Convention Card are also missing there.

 

Hunh?

 

oren

[TimG]

The description of the Natural Variant is "15-17 HCP club-based hands which are not suited for the 1NT opening". There is no example or mention of 4=4=1=4 hands. In the section "How do you show a medium variant of the 1♣ opening (15-17)?" there is mention of the auction 1♣-1♥, 1♠-1N, 2♣ with the description that this shows 4 spades and 5+ clubs. I suppose you would raise 1♥ with 4=4=1=4, so this doesn't mean that this shape is excluded. But, there is no mention in the section involving 1♣-1M of opener's rebid to show support in the 15-17 range. At least none that I see.

 

I have agreed with my WJ05 partners to play weak and strong splinter raises after 1♣-1M, similar to the approach after a 1M opening. The "weak" splinters correspond to the 15-17 1♣ variety and the strong splinters to the 18+ 1♣ variety. We have not explicitly said that these weak splinters may include 4=4=1=4 shape, but it seems to make sense.

 

I guess we have incorrectly been describing the natural 1♣ variant as 15-17, unbalanced with at least 5 clubs.

[bluecalm]

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

 

I am not defending description of wj2005. Maybe Jassem made a mistake of omitting those hands. What I am saying is this :

a)every polish player playing polish club including Jassem will open 4=4=1=4 shape with 1C and won't consider it "problem hand". It's just standard like opening 1D with 2-3-4-4 shape in SAYC. There are many varietes of wj you open 1C with that hand in all of them (excluding some 25+years old in which you had special 2D opener for 3 suited hands)

b)same applies to 4=4=4=1 and 1D opener

c)as to (41)=4=4 shape:

These days almost all players open this 1D. Old school was to open 1C with red singleton and 1D with black one. I don't really see the point but it was the way in old polish club systems.

 

Jassem did make a note of 4=4=0=5 hands. Those are opened with 1C not 2C. This one is not "obvious" in the sense that some polish club players would open this hand with 2C.

I hope that helps.

[Oren Goren]

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

 

I am not defending description of wj2005. Maybe Jassem made a mistake of omitting those hands. What I am saying is this :

a)every polish player playing polish club including Jassem will open 4=4=1=4 shape with 1C and won't consider it "problem hand". It's just standard like opening 1D with 2-3-4-4 shape in SAYC. There are many varietes of wj you open 1C with that hand in all of them (excluding some 25+years old in which you had special 2D opener for 3 suited hands)

b)same applies to 4=4=4=1 and 1D opener

c)as to (41)=4=4 shape:

These days almost all players open this 1D. Old school was to open 1C with red singleton and 1D with black one. I don't really see the point but it was the way in old polish club systems.

 

Jassem did make a note of 4=4=0=5 hands. Those are opened with 1C not 2C. This one is not "obvious" in the sense that some polish club players would open this hand with 2C.

I hope that helps.

I responded to this post earlier, bluecalm, but it hasn't shown up and once again the forum software took me to your post as being unread.

 

I was giving you your deserved due, not criticizing you.

 

When I wrote jassem about the problem he concisely said open 1C.

 

When I pointed out that the convention card and the file both don't include the hands in any opening bid he wrote back saying the card does say to use 1C for these unbalanced

hands with that HCP range.

 

Are we all insane?

 

Or is he just being a ... well, you know.

 

Are there two cards?

 

oren

[DJNeill]

Hi all,

From the english text in the "12-14" 1C variant section:

 

"I don’t recommend opening 2C (Precision) with both 4-crd majors. Practice shows it’s better to open 1C, and bid as if we have 4414 distribution."

 

Thanks,

Dan