Rossoneri Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 BBC link Personally, facing the possibility of having my flight back to London from Vienna on Christmas Eve cancelled is not very funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 BBC link Personally, facing the possibility of having my flight back to London from Vienna on Christmas Eve cancelled is not very funny. Personally I am all in favor of unions and voting. Personally I could care less about rich people who have money to fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Personally I could care less about rich people who have money to fly.International passenger demand is expected to rise from 760 million passengers in 2006 to 980 million in 2011 at an annual average growth rate (AAGR) of 5.1%. This will be lower than the 7.4% AAGR recorded during 2002-2006, largely due to slightly slower global economic growth. Domestic passenger demand is expected grow from 1.37 billion passengers in 2006 to 1.77 billion in 2011, an AAGR of 5.3%, fuelled by expansion in the Indian and Chinese domestic markets. So in your world, there are a heckuva lot of rich people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpace Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Personally I could care less about rich people who have money to fly.International passenger demand is expected to rise from 760 million passengers in 2006 to 980 million in 2011 at an annual average growth rate (AAGR) of 5.1%. This will be lower than the 7.4% AAGR recorded during 2002-2006, largely due to slightly slower global economic growth. Domestic passenger demand is expected grow from 1.37 billion passengers in 2006 to 1.77 billion in 2011, an AAGR of 5.3%, fuelled by expansion in the Indian and Chinese domestic markets. So in your world, there are a heckuva lot of rich people. Is that 1.37 billion unique people? That seems like a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 "How a union is going to ruin Christmas for some" And I thought this was going to be a thread about the elves going on strike. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Is that 1.37 billion unique people? That seems like a lot. No. Not unique. On my 15 second search, I didn't find any data on the number of unique travelers. But the point is there, that maybe in 1960 if you traveled by airplane, you were probably considered to be rich. That is no longer the case today. So one saying that they do not have sympathy for someone who travels by airplane, because they must be rich, is (1) covering a large percentage of the population (in particular in developed countries) and (2) really doesn't understand that air travel is for the masses (again more so in developed countries) than for the elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 it's not so much about being rich as it is about the number of carbon footprints being left... a carbon tax would cut down a lot on that number of flyers, i bet... then we'd be back to what it should be, only the rich able to fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I think we should all huddle in caves. No TV, no Internet, no electricity, no indoor plumbing. And certainly no flying. Probably no going farther than about ten miles from our cave. That'd solve all this global warming, who's rich and who's not, and how big is your carbon footprint business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonottawa Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Some of us are too smart for our own good. http://www.vimeo.com/4835556 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 it's not so much about being rich as it is about the number of carbon footprints being left... a carbon tax would cut down a lot on that number of flyers, i bet... then we'd be back to what it should be, only the rich able to fly How amusing to see the conservatives bitching that money brings privileges. For what its worth, a carbon tax probably would cut down on the number of flights that people take. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. The whole idea of a carbon tax is to discourage externalties. I understand that Jimmy and Ed prefer living a lifestyle where they get to piss all over other folks and let other people clean up their mess. This is the American way after all... Do whatever the frak you want, and let some other generation pay for things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 How a union is going to ruin Christmas for some, BA cabin crew strike Interesting the way you apportion blame 100% to the union - it couldn't be that the union grievance is justified and it is management's decisions that truly led to your plight? Or perhaps it is even a combination of faults? Or perhaps it is your own fault for booking on an airline that is having financial difficulties and labor problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I understand that Jimmy and Ed prefer living a lifestyle where they get to piss all over other folks and let other people clean up their mess. You understand nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 BBC link Personally, facing the possibility of having my flight back to London from Vienna on Christmas Eve cancelled is not very funny. "The changes that we introduced in the middle of November will not be reversed. Those changes enabled us to offer voluntary redundancy to 1,000 cabin crew and those people have left the business." Voluntary redundancy? I have never been offered voluntary redundancy. If I ever am, I hope they will explain what it means. Is it an offer that one can refuse? Would I be right in thinking this would mainly consist of volunteering to find a new job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Do whatever the frak you want, and let some other generation pay for things. Would this include the 12 trillion dollar deficit? Sorry, couldn't resist :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Voluntary redundancy? I have never been offered voluntary redundancy. If I ever am, I hope they will explain what it means. Is it an offer that one can refuse? Would I be right in thinking this would mainly consist of volunteering to find a new job? This sounds like what I've heard called "early retirement". Basically, people who were planning on retiring or looking for new jobs get to volunteer to be laid off. They get severance packages or pensions as if they'd been laid off or retired, which they wouldn't get if they just quit. This is a win-win situation: the company reduces its head count, employees who were going to leave soon anyway get additional benefits, and fewer employees are fired. If there aren't enough volunteers, the company will have to lay off employees to reach their workforce reduction goal, so you might end up among the chosen. I suspect most companies offer incentives to volunteer (i.e. a larger severance package), so if you think you're likely to be on the chopping block, it would be a good idea to volunteer rather than wait for them to call you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 In my opinion, the strike will help: 1. polarise the opinion of the British people against the flag-bearer airline. 2. increase the possibility of an eventual demise of BA 3. in some distorted way, cost the striking cabin crew more After the recent large scale bail-outs (banks + automobile cos + what else?), there must be an idea in the minds of the Unions that if BA goes bankrupt, the UK Govt will step in and save it. I will be really surprised if it happens. This is one company which (though probably not close to bankruptcy) will probably go the way of Swiss Air, KLM etc.... A major Spanish bank (Santander) already owns some key UK high-street banks. Perhaps in the near future, a major Spanish airline co (Iberia) will own BA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant590 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I think the problem is that the Union balloted all members, including those who have been given voluntary redundancy as well. This may make the strike action illegal --- BA are going to court on this very issue today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I think the problem is that the Union balloted all members, including those who have been given voluntary redundancy as well. This may make the strike action illegal --- BA are going to court on this very issue today. If the courts rule this illegal, something worse could happen. The cabin crew could decide to take sick leave or some such things en masse.. An unscheduled action (with similar disruptive actions of a strike) would come out much worse than a planned strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Voluntary redundancy? I have never been offered voluntary redundancy. If I ever am, I hope they will explain what it means. Is it an offer that one can refuse? Would I be right in thinking this would mainly consist of volunteering to find a new job? This sounds like what I've heard called "early retirement". Basically, people who were planning on retiring or looking for new jobs get to volunteer to be laid off. They get severance packages or pensions as if they'd been laid off or retired, which they wouldn't get if they just quit. This is a win-win situation: the company reduces its head count, employees who were going to leave soon anyway get additional benefits, and fewer employees are fired. If there aren't enough volunteers, the company will have to lay off employees to reach their workforce reduction goal, so you might end up among the chosen. I suspect most companies offer incentives to volunteer (i.e. a larger severance package), so if you think you're likely to be on the chopping block, it would be a good idea to volunteer rather than wait for them to call you. I was just being amused at the terminology. Do they have someone locked away somewhere making this stuff up? Strikes happen. I rerely try to determine who is being the most unreasonable. Long ago several of us were canoeing in northern Manitoba. The roads end at The Pas, a train goes north up th Flion Flon, we got off in between and canoed. Wehn we got back, the hermit fisherman there told us the trains were on strike. We had used our provisions so it was stay there eating fish for breakfast lunch and supper or take a hike. We left the canoes for the fisherman to ship back cod, and walked some 35-40 miles up to Flin Flon along the tracks, then flew back to The Pas. Not exactly the best part of the trip but I still have fond memories of it. In the current situation, I think I would be looking for alternative ways to get back. My European geography sucks but maybe a train to Paris and a bus to London? I assume trains don't go through the chunnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 IIRC, trains do go through the chunnel - at least they did. I remember a lot of construction at one of the train stations in London in support of this when I was there (19990-1993). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossoneri Posted December 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well, it seems like the Eurostar is going on strike as well this weekend (unrelated to this) and baggage handlers in Heathrow and Aberdeen going on strike as well (under the same union as the cabin crew strike.) So, I am supposed to be psychic and predict 2 months in advance that they were going to serve ballot papers? In any case, a lot of people affected by the strike have spent quite a bit of time saving up for their holidays. As my own flight is short-haul, it would still be within my means to book another flight, however 100 pounds is not a small sum to a student! For those who support the union's decision to strike, consider the following 2 points:1) If the strike goes through, BA will collapse or at the very least, suffer a big hit to its reputation. This can't be of any good to any of the staff in the long run. 2) If you think the union is acting in the best interest of the workers, well, bear in mind that the union behind this strike has lots of internal politics and one of the main "organisers" of this strike is running to be the general-secretary next year. Note that the current secretary-general has called the strike "probably over the top".BBC article I am currently too tired/busy with looking up possible alternatives, packing, deciding to buy an alternative ticket first or not but all the above information has been taken from news websites, you can easily read them by googling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 For those who support the union's decision to strike I never supported the union's decision to strike - I only pointed out that you had decided the union totally to blame and showed examples of how that may not be completely accurate. Rarely, if ever, is a single side totally blameless or totally at fault. For a timing standpoint, you would say the union's leveraged their timing to make the most impact by striking around the holidays. They doesn't make the timing right or wrong or the union right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Alert the media, I more or less agree with Winston here. Although he probably will not agree with what I am about to say. With regard to the railroad strike that I referred to, I never even learned the issues. My father was a carpenter, an uncle was a miner, I grew up with the idea that unions were a good thing. Now older, I see unions as the flip side of capitalism. Has every capitalist venture been good for society? No, not really. Is capitalism a good way to run the economy? Yes, I think so. Replace capitalism by organized labor and the answers don't change. On both sides the close-ups are not always pretty. I know nothing about the specifics of BA or its unions. I get the idea, maybe false, that unions are somewhat more of a drain on the UK economy than they are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossoneri Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 For those who support the union's decision to strike I never supported the union's decision to strike - I only pointed out that you had decided the union totally to blame and showed examples of how that may not be completely accurate. Rarely, if ever, is a single side totally blameless or totally at fault. For a timing standpoint, you would say the union's leveraged their timing to make the most impact by striking around the holidays. They doesn't make the timing right or wrong or the union right or wrong. Not referring to you winston! In any case, I blame the union for most of it for reasons above, and the fact that the none of the people voting for voted for the dates and time period. In any case, I am highly biased against strikes because I have seen labour disputes back home settled between unions and companies without any strikes. Feel free to disagree with me. The high court's decision will be out this afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 If BBC is considered to be fair and impartial, here is a useful article on the matter. I think you will find the latter part of the article (relating to employee pay, BA losses and pension deficit) interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8415370.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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