Bid this grand

[mr1303]

I'm going to force the opening bidding on you as the following:

 

2C 2D

3S

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sjxxhq10xdqxckxxxx&s=sakq10xxxhdakxcaqx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Nothing weird and wonderful here, since I was teaching beginners at the time. But how do you (with any accuracy) get to 7S?

[kfay]

2♣-2♦

3♠-4♣

4NT-5♦

6♦-7♠

 

3♠ sets trumps, demands cue

S fakes all the aces and asks for 3rd round diamond control.

 

The question is whether you can bid 6♦ since you may have a trump loser...

 

I don't know how to get around that. So this is not totally accurate. But I think most people cannot do this unless you play a relay system. You said basic so that's all I have.

 

BTW: I'll note that I think I saw that Auken-von Arnim were playing in Challenge the Champs of the '00s that after 6♦ 6NT shows the ♦Q and 7♠ says 'doubleton.' They must have rules on auctions where this applies (probably not here since you've never shown trump support) but is this how people normally play? I play this way with one partner but was not really sure if it was good or not then I saw that article so...

[Echognome]

I'll offer:

 

2♣ - 2♦

3♠ - 4♣

4NT - 5♦ (03)

6♦ - 7♠ (6♦ asks for 3rd round control)

 

This also let's you find it if North holds xx rather than Qx.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

The key is certainly, that both sides need to understand, that 3S sets trumps,

even if responder happens to be void in spades.

I am not sure, I would expect that this goes down easily with B/Is.

 

If this is clear, than the next question is, if you have already discussed cue bids.

If you have, than it is certainly a good idea to tell them, than the first (!) from

either side should show a top honor.

This is certainly sound theory, but it is equally certain, that this is a minority style,

at least at the moment.

If 4C can be a singleton, than opener wont be able to bid the grand with any

confidence, because he may not know until dummy hits, that dummy has trumps to

ruff clubs.

 

What is certainly a easily understandable concept is, that the 4C cue showes some

live, and you need more live, if you are short in trumps.

If 4C showes some live, than opener does not need to worry about the the Queen

of diamonds, because the king of clubs and 3 trumps would not be enough for a cue.

 

Best I can do, to answer your questions.

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

Not sure why there is such a rush to judgment.

 

2♣-2♦

3♠(forced)-4♣

 

At this point, which seems automatic, why blast 4NT? Seems reasonable to keep cues going for a moment.

 

4♦(diamond control)-4♠

 

Now, we know that Responder does not have the heart Ace. This would have been found out anyway, but this allows for a nice ending. When you later bid 6♦, partner could bid 6♥ as Grand Slam Last Train, implying that he has the diamond Queen but hesitance. Of course, that is a lot for a beginner. But, what about simple cuebidding?

 

Instead of 4NT, Opener could just bid 5♣. Responder will now bypass 5♦, denying a diamond control, and maybe cuebid 5♥ as third-round heart control.

 

Opener can now cuebid 6♣ as a grand slam try, enabling a 6♦ cuebid as third-round diamond control.

 

That's easy too.

[ONEferBRID]

Ken asked: " Why blast 4NT ? "

 

Because if Responder did have the ♥A , that is where your losing ♦ goes.

 

Replies to the 6♦ Q-ask are:

 

6♠ = no 3rd Rnd ♦ Ctrl

6NT = ♦ Q

7♦ = ♦ Q J

7♠ = x x doubleton ♦

[kenrexford]

Ken asked: " Why blast 4NT ? "

 

Because if Responder did have the ♥A , that is where your losing ♦ goes.

 

Replies to the 6♦ Q-ask are:

 

6♠ = no 3rd Rnd ♦ Ctrl

6NT = ♦ Q

7♦ = ♦ Q J

7♠ = x x doubleton ♦

If Responder has the heart Ace, you think he will keep that a secret if Opener bids 4♦ after Responder's 4♣?

 

I mean...

 

2♣-2♦

3♠-4♣

4♦-4♥

 

In that sequence, Responder has a heart control. It might be the Ace. Now might be a good time to bid 4NT, to find out. Then, if not, we can hope partner knows/remembers that 6♦ asks for the diamond Queen.

 

But...

 

2♣-2♦

3♠-4♣

4♦-4♠

 

In that sequence, I don't think partner will have the heart Ace too often. This makes 4NT rather pointless.

 

I get that finding out whether partner has the heart Ace would be useful. I don't get why 4NT seems to be the best way to find that out. In fact, it seems like a really dumb way to find that out.

[mike777]

ya for those of us who do not play 6d asks for QD or third round control then lets start with 4d.

 

Maybe:

 

 

2c=2d

3s=4c

4d=4s

5d?=5s?

6c?=6d?

7s

 

NOte by not bidding rkc I think you let partner know you got a void.

 

 

3s sets trumps

4c=A or K of clubs.

 

Note2.....6c must mean partner is looking for a grand and is looking for something in our hand. That something is not an A or K in any suit or the Q of trumps.

[movingon]

My partnerships play that the 3 spade bid sets trump and asks partner to cue bid an ace or to bid nt if he/she has no ace but has a king. so...

2clubs--2dis (showing at least 5 hcp)

3sp------3nt

4cl--------5cl

 

Then, depending on the state of our game at the time, I may gamble 7spades here....

 

But that is without any accuracy in the bidding. :(

 

Still, I think we would really need a good hand for me to bid 7. There is no guarantee I won't have a spade loser as well as a diamond loser!

[billw55]

Am I to understand that, for all of the above discussion, responder is effectively barred from supporting opener's suit? If 3♠ absolutely sets trumps and demands a cue, is that really a good choice when a trump loser is within reason?

 

It seems to me that there should not be any doubt about a trump loser - either responder should be able to support, or opener should have a more airtight suit. In this case perhaps opener should restrain himself to 2♠.

[Cyberyeti]

Am I to understand that, for all of the above discussion, responder is effectively barred from supporting opener's suit?  If 3♠ absolutely sets trumps and demands a cue, is that really a good choice when a trump loser is within reason?

 

It seems to me that there should not be any doubt about a trump loser - either responder should be able to support, or opener should have a more airtight suit.  In this case perhaps opener should restrain himself to 2♠.

Agreed, don't you want to be in the grand opposite xx, xxx, xxx, KJxxx also, let partner tell you he has a club suit as well as the king.

 

The spade suit is not completely solid, I'd certainly kick off with 2♠, no sense in being in 7♠ rather than 7♣ opposite void, Jxxx, xxx, KJxxxx

 

Does everybody in the states start with 2♦ ? I know a number of people here who'd start with 2N.

[mtvesuvius]

2♣ - 2♦

3♠ - 4♣

4N - 5♦

6♦ - 6N

7♠ - P

[Siegmund]

Yes 3S sets trumps even opposite a void.

With my reg p we'll be playing sweep cues:

 

2C-2D

3S-4C

5H (promising 1st and 2nd round of D, 1st and 2nd round of H, and the other club control, and good trumps)

which will may alert p to the fact I care about the 3rd round of diamonds. Either he will show it, or he will GSF and I will show all three.

 

Playing standard, I would start with the 4C cue, 4D cue, and on the next round probably cue 5D again, to call partner's attention once again to his DQ along with his aces and trumps.

[Old York]

The 2♦ response is not helping us very much ( forced on us)

 

I prefer to teach natural methods (Acol style etc)

Any Acol player should reach this grand slam without breaking a sweat

Many Sayc players would consider a 3♣ response, the hand is too good for 2♦

 

2♣ - 3♣

3♠ - 4♠

7♠ - p

 

At least opener knows of trump support and a biddable 5 card club suit opposite, along with 8+hcp

There is no guarantee that partner has ♦Q, but a very good chance that the 5th club can be established

Responder's hand could be:

♠Jxx ♥KJ ♦xxx ♣Kxxxx

and the grand is good odds, even though the red suits are unhelpful

 

I am a strong believer that beginners should be taught to fully understand natural bidding first, gadgets can be added later

 

Tony

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 AKQ10 to seven is a solid suit.

#2 Given the distributed values, 2NT instead of 2D is an real alternative,

but if you always answer 2D to 2C, that is a reasonable start as well.

#3 If you always respond 2D to 2C, a cue after 3S should show some live,

since responder is still unlimited in the sense that he can have 0-?,

if the cue showes a top honor makes this 3-?, and this cant be the real

solution since we are already at the 4 level.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[billw55]

...

 

2♣ - 3♣

3♠ - 4♠

7♠ - p

 

...

 

I am a strong believer that beginners should be taught to fully understand natural bidding first, gadgets can be added later

Agree with this. Isn't it easier when you just bid what you have? Once north gives a positive response and supports, bidding 7 is almost childishly simple.

[ONEferBRID]

2C - 2D! ( waiting, but positive )

.............[ 2H! = immediate bust; 3C = 5+cd suit w/2 of top 3 ]

 

2S - 3S (nice... this allows for cuebidding)

3NT! ( Serious ) - 4C

4NT - 5C ( 0 or 3 ); 5D would have shown ♥A = place for losing♦.

6D ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask ) - 6NT ( dQ )

7S

[mcphee]

Seems a majority of players like the idea of the 3 major jump setting trumps and demanding a cue. I am not of that camp. So we would see 2C 2D, 2S 3S, 3N (big slam try) 4C, 7S.

[P_Marlowe]

...

 

2♣ - 3♣

3♠ - 4♠

7♠ - p

 

...

 

I am a strong believer that beginners should be taught to fully understand natural bidding first, gadgets can be added later

Agree with this. Isn't it easier when you just bid what you have? Once north gives a positive response and supports, bidding 7 is almost childishly simple.

The problem with 3C is, that openers first real bid is on the 3 level.

Assume for one second, that opener has a bal. hand, he basically has to bid 3NT.

And even if you happen to agree, that 3C denies a 4 card major, you still should

be able to check for a possible 5-3 fit in the major.

 

Assume for one second, that opener has a 6-4 hand, he can show his

6 carder, but his 4 carder gets lost.

 

And do you really want to play clubs, if opener has xxx in clubs?

 

Sry, 3C with the given responder hand is ...

 

I am not advocating 2D as an always relais, I am not advocating

2D waiting, I am not advocating Kokish either, the method basically does

not matter, but since 2C already burned a whole level, lets teach, that one

needs to be vary of burning add. space.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am also a firm believer in bidding, what you have.

[hanp]

Ken, if opener did bid 4D, wouldn't you bid 4H (last train) as responder?

[mike777]

Seems a majority of players like the idea of the 3 major jump setting trumps and demanding a cue. I am not of that camp. So we would see 2C 2D, 2S 3S, 3N (big slam try) 4C, 7S.

 

"2C - 2D! ( waiting, but positive )

.............[ 2H! = immediate bust; 3C = 5+cd suit w/2 of top 3 ]

 

2S - 3S (nice... this allows for cuebidding)

3NT! ( Serious ) - 4C

4NT - 5C ( 0 or 3 ); 5D would have shown ♥A = place for losing♦.

6D ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask ) - 6NT ( dQ )

7S "

 

-------------

 

:D

 

Actually the OP bares your auction.

 

 

 

:)

[Old York]

...

 

2♣ - 3♣

3♠ - 4♠

7♠ - p

 

...

 

I am a strong believer that beginners should be taught to fully understand natural bidding first, gadgets can be added later

Agree with this. Isn't it easier when you just bid what you have? Once north gives a positive response and supports, bidding 7 is almost childishly simple.

The problem with 3C is, that openers first real bid is on the 3 level.

Assume for one second, that opener has a bal. hand, he basically has to bid 3NT.

And even if you happen to agree, that 3C denies a 4 card major, you still should

be able to check for a possible 5-3 fit in the major.

 

Assume for one second, that opener has a 6-4 hand, he can show his

6 carder, but his 4 carder gets lost.

 

And do you really want to play clubs, if opener has xxx in clubs?

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am also a firm believer in bidding, what you have.

Responder has the perfect hand for a positive response. Support for all 4 suits and balanced enough to play very well in no trumps

 

If opener has a 5 card major, then it can be bid at the 3 level, plenty of time to bid notrumps later

 

If opener is 6-4, responder can support any suit rebid

 

How often would you open 2♣ with xxx and how often would you want to raise clubs with this holding?

 

A positive response is not a waste of space, it often saves space

If 2♦ means nothing, then it is a waste of a good bid

The main reason that 2♦ is so popular is that many 2♣ openings have been diluted

And how can you hope to bid the grand with the hand I suggested?

 

♠Jxx ♥KJ ♦xxx ♣Kxxxx

 

Bridge is a partnership game. If you have absolutely no interest in partner's hand, then open 7♠

 

Tony

[kenrexford]

Ken, if opener did bid 4D, wouldn't you bid 4H (last train) as responder?

No, because I have a simple, and reasonable, rule.

 

Last Train is only bid by the "serious" partner. The non-serious partner bids real cues. 3♠ by definition makes Opener the "serious" partner.

 

This is sort of a "captaincy" issue, also.

[jdonn]

After 2♣ 2♦ 3♠ 4♣, I would never stop short of 7♠ as opener. This is eerily similar to the other thread but the chances are even better since the opponents haven't preempted. Can you check any of heart ace, club KJxx or Kxxxx, diamond queen, doubleton diamond, KTxx or Kxxx of clubs coming in, jack of diamonds in dummy with queen falling, heart lead setting up a trick in dummy, heart ruffing finesse, xxx of diamonds and Kx of clubs, misdefense on the run of 12 tricks, minor suit squeeze, JT of diamonds with a finesse.... show me the system that can find that, and when you do I'll stop taking a chance on grands with a million chances. Until that day, people should just be practical, and not try to avoid a contract with that many chances.

 

And making a positive response on Kxxxx of a minor is awful, no one do it!

[Old York]

7♠ could be completely wrong. It could be that 7♣ is the correct contract, or even 7♦. If responder is never allowed to show his suit, how can you get there?

 

♠- ♥KJx ♦QJxx ♣KJxxxx

 

A trump loser is possible in 7♠

 

Tony

 

edit: No bidding system is perfect, if it was this game would be akin to tic-tac-toe, impossible to win until an opponent makes a mistake