mike777 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I do wonder if we can have an innovative health care system based on being virtuous rather than one based on greed. Perhaps we can have a banking system based on being virtuous. I'd like a banking system based on everyone else being virtuous and me screwing them. EXCELLENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I do wonder if we can have an innovative health care system based on being virtuous rather than one based on greed. There are no guarantees in life, however, I'd gladly trade the US health care system for the one used in any number of other countries. Admittedly, I don't think that the European / Asian systems are based on being "virtuous" per see; rather they are designed to provide service to residents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Please.......is this a system based on greed or based on being virtuous...you guys avoid the question...... If the banking system is based on virtuous...okIf the health care system is based on virtuous ..ok.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Please.......is this a system based on greed or based on being virtuous...you guys avoid the question...... If the banking system is based on virtuous...okIf the health care system is based on virtuous ..ok.... Mike, perhaps the reason that people are avoiding the question is that the question itself is stupid. Here's a question for you: Would you prefer a health care system that is based on scrambled eggs or aardvarks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Not sure if this is amusing or sad... http://www.businessinsider.com/health-insu...rm-bill-2009-12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Bullshit.... I fail to see anyone addressing the issue, for the simple reason successful economic systems are based on greed not bullshit or being virtuous. The best way we know to help millions of poor to have a better life is: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 How old are you Mike? Any chance that you're ever going to outgrow your ever-so-simplistic Manichean world view? One would have hoped that you might have learned something from the experience of the last couple years. In particular, Greed is not necessarily good and Regulation serves a vital purpose in the economy. Don't get me wrong: I'm an economist by training. Almost by definition, this means that I like markets as a mechanism to allocate goods and services, I approve of the profit motive, and I think that a (regulated) captialist economy is probably the best option for organizing most economic activity. However, I also have a brain which means that I'm able to understand that simplistic lens like "greed" versus "virtue" do far more harm than good. These kinds of frameworks are great if you're trying to gin up a crowd - especially if you can weave expressions like "Tyranny" into the mix. However, they're useless for any kind of nuanced policy discussion, especially ones that require compromise between competing solutions. As I've said before, you often act as if you trying to lead some kind of Socratic dialogue by posing "deep" philosophic questions. Sadly, in order to work well, the Socratic dialogue requires a Socrates (or at least a Plato) rather than a random internet crank who, all too often, seems to be off his meds. "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer cell" - Edward Abbey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 We like to talk a lot about models. Those who trust them call them trustworthy. Two models come to mind quickly. One is the model that tells us what the weather will be like this week. With all olf the available online weather sites, I find that none of them agree with each other, or with themselves from day to day, and yet another inconsistent option is what actually comes to pass. The other model I liked was the model that suggested a good course of action in dealing with mortgages over the past few years. Upon which trillions rided. When you take these types of models as examples... If you find that these types of models need tweaking, motivated by bias, and re-explanation after the fact, when they seem to have failed, this adds to the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 One is the model that tells us what the weather will be like this week. With all olf the available online weather sites, I find that none of them agree with each other, or with themselves from day to day, and yet another inconsistent option is what actually comes to pass. The distinction between weather and climate modeling is one of the most basic in these discussions. In general, if people can't get something this basic correct, its a pretty good indicator that they haven't done even rudimentary leg work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 The other model I liked was the model that suggested a good course of action in dealing with mortgages over the past few years. Upon which trillions rided. What makes you think that those models were designed to suggest a "good course of action"? From what I can tell, the mortgage models worked as intended. They allowed the banks to wrack up massive amounts of profits in a short period over time. The banks were later able to socialize all of the losses when thigns blew up. If I were in banking, it sounds like a pretty darn good deal to me... Please note: There were also a lot of models that predicted that things were going to blow up. Some people (like Paulson) made ridiculous amounts of money - $15 billion or so - betting that the market was going to implode. In general, few people had the cojones to make those bets because its very difficult to bet against a bubble. (You generally need to take short positions, which means that your losses aren't bounded. You can be dead on regarding the trend, however, if you're timing is slightly off you can get completely destroyed by a margin call. The best investment advice that I ever got was that I should never risk my own money in a short position, but always look for a countervailing long...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I think your example is a bit less speculative than than some of the other ones. But it's the same principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are many problems with all these modells. Much too many to adress in this forum. Just to name a few: 1. Modells are modells, they are never reality. Reality is too complex for any modell. So anybody must life with the knowledge that a modell may not work. Of course they are still much better then most things we had in the past, but they cannot be 100 % accurate. 2. Modells are made by men so they are not errorfree. 3. Many modells are designed to reach a goal. If you ever worked for an insurance company, you will know what I mean. So the variables are fixed in a possible way which will produce the right result. 4. If you work for a company, you are not allowed to make descission because your stomach told you so. You need to back up your descissions. The problem is: You cannot look into the future so you need to back up your descission by something. Maybe an outside authority or a fitting modell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Greed is not necessarily good and Regulation serves a vital purpose in the economy. Don't get me wrong: I'm an economist by training. Almost by definition, this means that I like markets as a mechanism to allocate goods and services, I approve of the profit motive, and I think that a (regulated) captialist economy is probably the best option for organizing most economic activity. However, I also have a brain which means that I'm able to understand that simplistic lens like "greed" versus "virtue" do far more harm than good. These kinds of frameworks are great if you're trying to gin up a crowd - especially if you can weave expressions like "Tyranny" into the mix. However, they're useless for any kind of nuanced policy discussion, especially ones that require compromise between competing solutions. I think this is right on the mark. In fact, it's hard to see how people can look at history -- including very recent history -- and think otherwise. I'm not an economist (majored in math, but did take three semesters of economics), so I look at this from the point of view of someone who has been starting and running businesses for many years, starting with rental properties as a young man. As you can have good laws and bad laws, you can have good business regulations and bad business regulations. But you do need regulations to set up the framework within which all business competition occurs, just as you need laws to protect society from predatory people. The simplistic idea that greed is necessarily good is patent nonsense. If I make a fortune by tricking the unwary out of money, I'm of no greater benefit to society than is a very accomplished thief. When regulations change, businesses adapt. If they can't adapt, they fail -- but that means they were run by piss poor business people to start with. And if a business operates against the interests of the society in which it exists, I daresay it deserves to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are many problems with all these modells. Much too many to adress in this forum. Just to name a few: 1. Modells are modells, they are never reality. Reality is too complex for any modell. So anybody must life with the knowledge that a modell may not work. Of course they are still much better then most things we had in the past, but they cannot be 100 % accurate. 2. Modells are made by men so they are not errorfree. 3. Many modells are designed to reach a goal. If you ever worked for an insurance company, you will know what I mean. So the variables are fixed in a possible way which will produce the right result. 4. If you work for a company, you are not allowed to make descission because your stomach told you so. You need to back up your descissions. The problem is: You cannot look into the future so you need to back up your descission by something. Maybe an outside authority or a fitting modell. Having lived in Cleveland, I tend to hate Modells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Having lived in Cleveland, I tend to hate Modells. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 The Socratic method leads to an unquestionable truth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 What we've learned from history is that there needs to be a balance between greed and regulation. A free market is the correct starting point, but without regulation what you have is the wild west or the Mafia. What the Donahue-Friedman clip failed to mention is that this also needs to be in a democratic setting, so that the regulators have to answer to the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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