5NT

[TimG]

Following on gwnn's 4NT post, I'm curious about rules regarding 5NT.

 

Can anyone simply describe when it is pick-a-slam, when it is quantitative, when it is grand slam force, when it is a suggestion to play, when it is something else, etc.?

[kenrexford]

Best idea I ever came up with:

 

Unless the person bidding 5NT bid 4NT on the last round as an ace-asking bid (Blackwood or RKCB), then 5NT is always "OS5NT." This means, "Partner, at this point, I either don't know what your last bid meant, or I don't know what my last bid meant, or I don't know what any of your or my next bids will mean, or I think you don't know what the heck you are doing, or for some other reason I am scared senseless right now. So, please place the contract. I will not help any more. I will pass whatever you do, even if I think your selection is in a suit I think you have a void in, as I really don't even know if I have that right. Pass 5NT if you think that's right."

[debrose]

I'd recommend starting with the default that 5N is always pick-a-slam except where otherwise agreed.

 

Possible specific exceptions might include:

 

1) Grand Slam Force when your side has bid only one suit and no notrump

 

2) When part of an ace/keycard asking sequence (how defined depends on those agreements)

 

3) Directly over a natural notrump bid, including 4NT (quantitative). Note: I play this with some partners - that 5N is stronger than 4N when 4N is quantitative - but I think most experts don't, and would treat it as pick a slam in those auctions

[mtvesuvius]

Best idea I ever came up with:

 

Unless the person bidding 5NT bid 4NT on the last round as an ace-asking bid (Blackwood or RKCB), then 5NT is always "OS5NT." This means, "Partner, at this point, I either don't know what your last bid meant, or I don't know what my last bid meant, or I don't know what any of your or my next bids will mean, or I think you don't know what the heck you are doing, or for some other reason I am scared senseless right now. So, please place the contract. I will not help any more. I will pass whatever you do, even if I think your selection is in a suit I think you have a void in, as I really don't even know if I have that right. Pass 5NT if you think that's right."

1C*-P-5N B)

 

*16+ HCP

[kenrexford]

Best idea I ever came up with:

 

Unless the person bidding 5NT bid 4NT on the last round as an ace-asking bid (Blackwood or RKCB), then 5NT is always "OS5NT."  This means, "Partner, at this point, I either don't know what your last bid meant, or I don't know what my last bid meant, or I don't know what any of your or my next bids will mean, or I think you don't know what the heck you are doing, or for some other reason I am scared senseless right now.  So, please place the contract.  I will not help any more.  I will pass whatever you do, even if I think your selection is in a suit I think you have a void in, as I really don't even know if I have that right.  Pass 5NT if you think that's right."

1C*-P-5N :wacko:

 

*16+ HCP

Well, partner might be that stupid tonight.

[mikeh]

GSF has lost a lot of adherents for two, related, reasons, I think.

 

One is that keycard and its followups, including exclusion, render GSF largely (but not always) surplus to requirements. It is needed far less frequently than back in the 1930's through to the 1970's when keycard began to be used.

 

The other is that 'pick a slam' was invented. While it may not arise frequently, the frequency with which it is desirable, and no other good althernative is available, is now much greater than is the case for GSF.

 

I would go with Debrose.... pick a slam should be the default meaning unless it (clearly) doesn't apply. Thus, if we have identified length only in one suit, such that it makes no sense to 'pick' another denomination, 5N will be GSF ...unless we are re-blacking, of course.

 

Also, I am old fashioned enough to play that 1N - 5N or 2N - 5N are forcing, asking partner to bid 6 or 7, but allowing partner to suggest a suit along the way...thus 2n - 5N - 7♦ would show 5+ diamonds and a good hand in context...allowing responder to pass or correct to 7N.

 

My rule then would be it is pick a slam unless we are confident that the context rules it out. Keycard re-ask, or unambiguous GSF or direct raise of natural notrump opening are the only ones I can think of.

 

As one example...[4♠] 5♥ [5♠] 5N...even tho we have bid only one suit, this would be pick a slam...

 

I like a treatment I read in an article by Larry Cohen, altho I have no idea whose idea this was originally...if one player bids 5N as pick a slam and then overrides partner by pulling to 6N, this invites 7. So in this last example, if ovecaller bids 6minor, and advancer bids 6♥, that's a hand with interest in grand.....otherwise would have raised directly.

[nigel_k]

I'd recommend starting with the default that 5N is always pick-a-slam except where otherwise agreed.

 

Possible specific exceptions might include:

 

1) Grand Slam Force when your side has bid only one suit and no notrump

 

2) When part of an ace/keycard asking sequence (how defined depends on those agreements)

 

3) Directly over a natural notrump bid, including 4NT (quantitative). Note: I play this with some partners - that 5N is stronger than 4N when 4N is quantitative - but I think most experts don't, and would treat it as pick a slam in those auctions

I agree with pick a slam as the default and don't have any definite rules. Usually in an uncontested auction it will only be GSF if you have agreed trumps already. A NT raise (such as 2NT-5NT) I would play as asking partner to choose either 6 or 7. I thought this was standard but it could be a British thing.

 

In contested auctions, you might still want choice of slam when your side has bid only one suit, 1♥-(5♦)-5NT, being a choice of hearts and clubs probably.

[debrose]

I agree that 5N should be pick a slam in the contested auctions mentioned by the last two posters, even when our side has bid only one suit. Certainly we'd have to have at least agreed the suit to even consider using GSF in comp. I was thinking no interference, and also that it would be a jump, and should have said so. However, I would think 4S-P-5N would be a clear GSF auction, so I wouldn't make the rule that we must always have agreed a suit.

Nigel, I believe Standard American does say 1N-5N or 2N-5N means "bid 6 or 7" I learned that when starting out 25 years ago, so it's not just a British thing. That said, while I try to teach my int/adv students everything that's "Standard", I don't bother discussing that auction with any level of player anymore, since I've never seen it come up. If the appropriate hand did get dealt, and neither that nor some sort of relay response were available, there would be no scientific way to determine whether to bid 6 or 7. So in theory it is a useful treatment.

[Old York]

In the context of Beginner/Intermediate forum, may I suggest that pick-a-slam is a bit too advanced

 

2NT-5NT is clearly "Bid 7NT if maximum, bid 6NT if minimum - do not pass"

 

1♠-5NT is clearly "Bid 7♠ with 2 of the 3 top honours - I have a void so cannot use rkcb"

 

Tony