How should I bid this?

[Flame]

1♠, clearcut, 100% everytime.

But I don't play SAYC, for many reason.

As I have stated before many of times, bridge is a game of constantly adjusting, and making the smallest lie.

Sometimes you are just stuck for a bid that's perfect.

If you don't have the feel, well....... I think I already suggested bingo earlier ;)

 

Mike :P

I dont understand how can you say that.

If a student of mine asks me about this and, i will prbebly tell him to bid 1sp, this is importent to understand the basics of bridge, that majors come first, that 1nt denay 4 card major, this as i mentioned before is the book bid, but this doesnt have to be the best bid, and when atleast one expert is telling you he would bid 1nt instead , you can throw to the garbage words like clearcut and automatic(unless i dont understand this word and it means something like the book bid).

Your saying clearcut here just make me think you are close minded, not ready to learn, overconfident, arrogant maybe. sorry if i offend you here but thats how i see it.

[the hog]

Flame,

What both Mike and I are saying is:The most common games are 3N and 4M, therefore a bidding system should be designed to reach those contracts easily as possible. Bidding 1NT on this hand cuts out the possibility of reaching a S fit. No one has yet mentioned a plausible way of finding a S contract, after responder has DENIED 4S with his bid.

You will note that even Luis in his reply to me changed his tune from "A crime against Bridge" to accepting that some players would bid 1S.

 

To say 1S is automatic is not close minded. Tell me a REALISTIC way to get to S after a NT bid and I will listen to you. NO ONE has yet.

[luke warm]

playing sayc, what's wrong with a 2♦ bid after 1♥? you have 26 zar points *grin*... even if you didn't, the hand (in my mind) qualifies for a 2/1 in sayc... the problem comes about when opener rebids 2♥, which he probably will (i don't see him reversing here, since you supposedly denied spades the first time - although with strength he might anyway)... now do you bid 2♠ or do you pass? seems to me you have to pass

 

the truth is, i'd bid 1♠ over 1♥... i don't think it's automatic, and some excellent players have said they'd bid 1nt... on the other hand some pretty dern good players bid 1♠... discouraging, ain't it?

[Flame]

You will note that even Luis in his reply to me changed his tune from "A crime against Bridge" to accepting that some players would bid 1S.

Exactly my point, he first said its a crime but when a good player like you said he would bid 1sp then he reconsider and said its not a crime anymore, this is exctly what i ment, i would have no problem if you said its a clearcut before luis said he would bid differently but after he did, its just cant be a clearcut. it can be right but its not a clearcut.

[the hog]

I repeat my question, "How do you get to a S contract?"

[Trpltrbl]

playing sayc, what's wrong with a 2♦ bid after 1♥? you have 26 zar points *grin*...

 

I was going to mention something about that, but this is beginner/intermediate area.

And Actually you only have 24 ZARpoints :D

 

Mike :)

[Flame]

I repeat my question, "How do you get to a S contract?"

Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?

The way to solve this question is not simple and not clearcut, its a big work (not worth doing atleast for me) of checking many many hands.

Again never said 1sp is wrong.

[the hog]

"Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?"

 

No, not when I will play in 3N off 1 with 4S making at the other table opposite:

 

AKxx

AKQxx

xx

Qx

 

Luis was talking about how pd can evaluate a singleton S opposite Txxx in a high D contract, (5, 6 or 7Ds). A high D contract is a LONG way away. Partner has opened with a 1 level bid after all. As I stated previously the most likely games are 4M and 3NT. 1S tells the least lie on the hand.

 

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction? If you are trying to build up a partnership, as you stated in the post on psyching, the best lesson greater experience and maturity can teach you, when "Flame" eventually becomes "Fire", is to allow your partner to contribute and not to mastermind the bidding.

[Trpltrbl]

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction?

 

Totally agree.

 

Mike :D

[cherdano]

Hi Kathryn,

 

you see that you posted a difficult problem hand, as the experts here disagree severely :-) I think it's a good hand to talk about some hand evaluation.

 

I don't know whether you considered a 2♦ response at your first bid. You probably learned that you need 11 points for this bid, and you only have 10, but consider:

1. Your 8 HCP contain AK, which makes them good points.

2. Your 2 long suit points in diamonds come from a suit headed by AKJ, so you should be proud of them!

3. Even considering this, you could have 6-3-2-2 distribution, but you have 6-4-2-1, which plays much better.

So you have lots of plus to your 10 points, the only minus is that the singleton is in partner's suit (a big minus, to admit). So this hand seems definitely worth a SAYC 2/1 response, and I would bid 2♦ if I played SAYC.

 

But there is nothing wrong with 1♠.

 

Now after 3♣ by partner, you have your two short suits in partners long suits. Misfit! This is a big minus, and you should try to slow down the auction. If you play this as natural, 3♦ would be a good bid IMO. If you play this as artificial 4th suit forcing, then I think 3NT is the simplest and most practical bid. You know you have more than enough points for game, but you have no fit, so 3NT is the natural place to play. It also warns your partner that there might be a misfit. I might also bid 3♥ like Ben, but I think it is dangerous if your partner doesn't know you could have this hand. From his point of view, you might still have a game forcing hand with 3 hearts after all! 4♣ should show 4 cards (since partner usually just has 4 clubs, or might even have only 3, as Ben pointed out), so this bid was a mistake.

 

And finally, don't worry about having ended in a terrible contract. Such extreme distributions are hard to bid, since point count doesn't help to evaluate the hands at all. If you had the ♣K instead of ♦AKJ, your partner might have made 7♥ opposite your 3 points.

[Free]

"Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?"

 

No, not when I will play in 3N off 1 with 4S making at the other table opposite:

 

AKxx

AKQxx

xx

Qx

 

Luis was talking about how pd can evaluate a singleton S opposite Txxx in a high D contract, (5, 6 or 7Ds). A high D contract is a LONG way away. Partner has opened with a 1 level bid after all. As I stated previously the most likely games are 4M and 3NT. 1S tells the least lie on the hand.

 

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction? If you are trying to build up a partnership, as you stated in the post on psyching, the best lesson greater experience and maturity can teach you, when "Flame" eventually becomes "Fire", is to allow your partner to contribute and not to mastermind the bidding.

Sorry to say this Ron, but how in the world will you miss a ♠ fit with such hand? Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse, and you might try for slam, ending in 4 or 5♠ probably :D ...

[badderzboy]

Hi all,

 

As this question is in the BIL section, I think that the question is one of best bidding practice for us BILlies and that must be to bid 1♠ as partner has not denied 4♠ and we have a weak hand and if we do end up in a NT contract at least opps may not lead spades as a bid suit if we have a complete misfit. The hand is borderline for a 2♦ bid as it is 10+ with length points and the problem goes away

 

The next thing is not to open 1♠ with xxxxx in spades and a 2-5-4-2 hand and 14 pts :D

 

Steve

[the hog]

"Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse"

 

No Frederick, why would he? Read some of the earlier posts I made as to the meaning of a 2S bid now - as responder has denied 4S, the 2S bid can have various meanings. In my partnership for example it would now show 15(4)(3). Ok many don't play this , but most good partnerships would play that it shows concentrated values, not a 4 card suit. Why would you show 4S when partner has DENIED 4S? Don't forget also that in some partnerships this will show 6H and 5S. Now THAT is a gross distortion I am sure you would agree, and should lead to responder bidding 4S on 3 card support with a suitable hand. Sure 4S may make in the 4-3 fit, but....

 

Also Frederick, I am sure that in your normal partnerships you have some means of showing this hand type. We certainly do, but this forum is not the vehicle to discuss it.

 

One thing is certainly true - in a regular partnership you need to discuss what a 1Major response is. We have it very easy in our partnership as we play full Mafia, but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here. I know Luis hates this style, based on some posts last year.

 

Cheers, Ron

[whereagles]

I really should mind my own business.. but for the sake of the game, I must say this.

 

Luis: saying to a beginner that his 1S bid was "a criminal offense" is very bad publicity for bridge. Please try and be more relaxed, at least towards beginners.

[luis]

I really should mind my own business.. but for the sake of the game, I must say this.

 

Luis: saying to a beginner that his 1S bid was "a criminal offense" is very bad publicity for bridge. Please try and be more relaxed, at least towards beginners.

Dear Whereagles

 

Beginners know that I respect them and I'd never try to offend them or make them feel bad about a bid. I just wanted to point out what I think about this style of bidding. If I say something is a "criminal offense" you should know I'm using the Luis' code of laws :-).

There're many books and many styles as an example I agree with Ron in about 90% of the problems posted here and I strongly disagree with him in every single problem where responder has xxxx in a major and AKxxxx in a minor :-)

[luis]

"Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse"

 

No Frederick, why would he? Read some of the earlier posts I made as to the meaning of a 2S bid now - as responder has denied 4S, the 2S bid can have various meanings. In my partnership for example it would now show 15(4)(3). Ok many don't play this , but most good partnerships would play that it shows concentrated values, not a 4 card suit. Why would you show 4S when partner has DENIED 4S? Don't forget also that in some partnerships this will show 6H and 5S. Now THAT is a gross distortion I am sure you would agree, and should lead to responder bidding 4S on 3 card support with a suitable hand. Sure 4S may make in the 4-3 fit, but....

 

Also Frederick, I am sure that in your normal partnerships you have some means of showing this hand type. We certainly do, but this forum is not the vehicle to discuss it.

 

One thing is certainly true - in a regular partnership you need to discuss what a 1Major response is. We have it very easy in our partnership as we play full Mafia, but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here. I know Luis hates this style, based on some posts last year.

 

Cheers, Ron

Ron,

 

You have your bidding style in your system: "always bid a major first" so your pd will KNOW you can have a better minor when you bid 1h-1s. While your approach may or may not be closer to "standard" than mine it's not absolutely standard since by rule you MUST bid 1s due to systemic considerations, one of them pd not being able to reverse after 1h-1N with 5 hearts and 4 spades since you already denied 4.

 

You say "1s automatic" because you are forced to bid 1s in your system, playing SAYC 2d, 1N and 1s are valid options and there's no "automatic" bid. Ben and I choose 1N, some others choose 2d and some will choose 1s. Automatic?

 

Playing natural opener can reverse with 5 hearts and 4 spades even when he suspects pd doesn't have 4 just to describe his hand, he doesn't have any other bid.You can pretend a player learning SAYC will take 1h-1N;2s as not showing spades. So as long as opener bids naturally there's very little danger in not bidding xxxx of spades after 1h since opener will reverse if he does have a good hand with spades.

 

Being this a beginers forum I think that "don't bid horrible suits" or "threat xxxx as a 3 card suit" is far a better rule than "always bid your majors first" which is a complete distortion of natural bidding since you are supossed to bid your longer and better suits first and then your side suits. While I can accept your "theory" as one viable option that I don't like I really don't think it's a good advice for beginners.

 

Luis

[whereagles]

Well, just keep in mind not all newbies manage to guess your writing style correctly the first time they read a post of yours :(

[hrothgar]

Personally, I am very unconvinced as to the logic of a 1NT response.

 

Lets consider what 1NT response does/does not promise:

 

1NT denies a 4 card major. We're playing SAYC here, and there isn't any notion of biddable suits. While this doesn't rule out a 1NT response, it is a major flaw.

 

1NT suggests a balanced hand which will normally hold at least a doubleton in support of Hearts. Here, once again, there are exceptions, however, bidding 1NT on a 4=1=6=2 is another major flaw.

 

Regular readers of these forums are well aware that I am happy to take liberties with certain bids. For example, suppose that partner opened 1C and I held

 

5432

K52

QT9

KT3

 

I'd probably respond 1NT rather than introducing my Spade "suit". However, the hand in question is far too much of a distortion.

 

I far prefer to bid 1S or even 2D rather than 1NT.

[whereagles]

Well... I don't believe there's such a thing as a unique and "correct" approach to bidding this hand. Decisions as close as this one are a matter of style and personal preference. To argue one approach is clearly superior is an unsustainable thesis.

 

I kinda like the both plans, actually. Opposite a weak partner I'd sure bid 1NT, just to make sure I play the hand. Opposite a strong pard, if he's from the "never bypass a 4-card major" brigade, I'd definitely bid 1S. That'll keep him happy and a happy partner is worth many points :(

 

From a technical viewpoint, one problem with bidding 1NT is if it goes

 

1H 1NT

2S ??

(2S = usual reverse, 45 shape with 16+ points. And don't tell me opener should bypass his spades - I don't think that's helpful.)

 

Now what do you bid? 4S looks right (or even a forcing 3S), but partner won't find out about the diamond suit. After all, you could have bid this way with Txxx xx KJxx KQx. On the other hand you can't bid 3D, as pard might pass that, fearing you have xxx xx KQJxxx xx. 4D as a sort of fit-bid would be ideal, but it can be misinterpreted as control bid. (It shouldn't, but it could.)

 

All this goes far beyond beginner level, so for that reason I would recommend a newbie to just bid 1S.

[OSH]

1H 1NT

2S ??

(2S = usual reverse, 45 shape with 16+ points. And don't tell me opener should bypass his spades - I don't think that's helpful.)

 

Now what do you bid? 4S looks right (or even a forcing 3S), but partner won't find out about the diamond suit. After all, you could have bid this way with Txxx xx KJxx KQx. On the other hand you can't bid 3D, as pard might pass that, fearing you have xxx xx KQJxxx xx. 4D as a sort of fit-bid would be ideal, but it can be misinterpreted as control bid. (It shouldn't, but it could.)

When I played SAYC, after

1H 1NT

2S ??

with my regular pd I played a Lebehnsol style 2NT, and pd bid 3C if he is minimum. In this way the direct 3D bid now is forcing .

 

PS: hrothgar, you have 14 cards!

[whereagles]

Hum... that's not a fool-proof solution either. Suppose it goes

 

1H 1NT

2S 3D (forcing)

3NT 4S

 

is partner going to understand you have good diamonds plus residual spade fit, or will he think 4S is a cue with a solid or semi-solid diamond suit? :(

[the hog]

"You say "1s automatic" because you are forced to bid 1s in your system, "

 

My last post on this topic as quite frankly this is getting boring.

 

No Luis, had you read my post more carefully you would note that I quite clearly said:

 

"but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here".

 

Actually I think teaching beginners/intermediates to bypass their suits and convolute the bidding is not good advice.

[OSH]

Hum... that's not a fool-proof solution either. Suppose it goes

 

1H 1NT

2S 3D (forcing)

3NT 4S

 

is partner going to understand you have good diamonds plus residual spade fit, or will he think 4S is a cue with a solid or semi-solid diamond suit? :rolleyes:

I limited my hand with the 1NT bid (by the way, I wouldn't have by-passed the S), after a reverse, if I'm not interested in the actual strenght of partner and bid 3D directly, it is forcing manche.

So:

1H 1NT

2S 3D

3NT 4S is to play

 

1H 1NT

2S 3D

3NT 4D shows a solid or semi-solid diamond suit.

I found that to have a clear distinction between a forcing bid and a weak bid is very useful in this situation.

[whereagles]

Ah, I see. Good bidding :rolleyes: