How should I bid this?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=e&s=s10xxxhxdakjxxxcxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

W N E S

P 1♥ P 1♠

P 3♣ P ? [/hv]

 

Hi,

Playing this with pick up partner, ended up in wrong contract.

My second bid was 4♣ ;)

What should I have bid? (learning sayc)

 

tyia

jillybean

[luis]

What system were you playing?

 

I think the 1♠ bid is a criminal offense in any system.

and sorry but 4♣ is probably even worst.

 

Playing 2/1 bid 1N and if pd rebids 2♣ bid 2♦. (Over 3♣ 3♦ or 3N depending on your agreements about 3♦ after 1M-1N;3c)

Playing Sayc if 1h-3♦ is weakish or invitational and not artificial then bid 3♦. If not I think a 1N bid is best, typical SAYC nebulous 1N bid but at least the HCPs are right this time.

 

Luis

[badderzboy]

Playing SAYC,

 

I would have bid 1♠ first for two reasons it stops a spade lead and by bidding 1NT you have denied 4 spades! and you are not strong enough to bid 2♦.

 

 

After the strong reverse promising 5♥ & 4♣ I would bid 3NT showing the misfit and diamond stop and expecting the diamond lead into your nice AKJxxx...

 

A fellow beginner / intermediate so I'm likely to be incorrect!

 

Steve

[Flame]

The syac "book" bid is 1sp, so you shouldnt feel bad for making it.

You can do what luis suggested, skip this major suit because it will show the hand better.

[Rado]

Hi all, friends

 

To Jilly:

after 1♥ -1♠-3♣ bid 3NT, the hands seems to be misfit 2-suiters, but after jump by the opener you have enough values for 3NT ( and hope 1♠ bid to stop Opponents leading the suit:-))))))))))))))

 

To Luis:

In my view when non FG responder is better to show 4 cards Major than to hide

"missing to bid 1♠ is criminal offence......"

 

In general:

using fairly natural methods there are many situations with 4 cards Major+6 cards minor and less than FG values where every bid seems wrong. Unfortunatelly most of the bridge teaching books present only hands convenient for their methods and miss the problem ones.

 

My practical advise is to show your Major and accept the bad part scores when partner is weak, but not to miss your games in Major or NT when partner has better hand.

On the contrary - let's add an Ace to the example hand:

♠ 10xxx

♥x

♦AKJxxx

♣Ax

now start with 2/1 and show ♠ later if needed

 

Best Regards

Rado

[luis]

Playing SAYC,

 

I would have bid 1♠ first for two reasons it stops a spade lead and by bidding 1NT you have denied 4 spades! and you are not strong enough to bid 2♦.

 

 

After the strong reverse promising 5♥ & 4♣ I would bid 3NT showing the misfit and diamond stop and expecting the diamond lead into your nice AKJxxx...

 

A fellow beginner / intermediate so I'm likely to be incorrect!

 

Steve

The problem is when pd has something like 1-5-3-4 or 0-5-3-5, you can be missing a diamond slam since you never bid your 6 card suit.

Bidding 1s with xxxx and then 3N never showing AKJxxx of diamonds can never be the right approach no matter where they told you such a thing.

 

You are wrong about 1s being the "Sayc bid" the SAYC bid is 1N yes, deniying the horrible xxxx of spades -good thing- over almost any rebid by pd you can bid 3♦ showing a hand without 3h, without 4♠ and with a diamond suit 6-10 HCP, which is xactly what you have.

 

"No rule or book can prevent you from doing what is correct" (Luis)

[Trpltrbl]

It depends if you play 4th Forcing.

When you think ahead in auction, you can see problem arise when you bid 1♠ and yr pd bids 2♣. In the case I play 4suit Forcing I would have bid 1 NT.

If I don't I bid 1♠ and after pd's 2♣, I bid 2♦.

There really isn't a perfect bid, that just happens sometimes.

What Luis said could work sometimes, but you are telling pd's 2 lies now, you denied 4♠ and promised at least 2♥.

 

Mike :)

[luis]

Hi all, friends

 

To Jilly:

after 1♥ -1♠-3♣ bid 3NT, the hands seems to be misfit 2-suiters, but after jump by the opener you have enough values for 3NT ( and hope 1♠ bid to stop Opponents leading the suit:-))))))))))))))

 

To Luis:

In my view when non FG responder is better to show 4 cards Major than to hide

"missing to bid 1♠ is criminal offence......"

 

In general:

using fairly natural methods there are many situations with 4 cards Major+6 cards minor and less than FG values where every bid seems wrong. Unfortunatelly most of the bridge teaching books present only hands convenient for their methods and miss the problem ones.

 

My practical advise is to show your Major and accept the bad part scores when partner is weak, but not to miss your games in Major or NT when partner has better hand.

On the contrary - let's add an Ace to the example hand:

♠ 10xxx

♥x

♦AKJxxx

♣Ax

now start with 2/1 and show ♠ later if needed

 

Best Regards

Rado

Multi-reply:

 

Rado:

 

My friend, I disagree 100% with you :-), how can you be happy with your 3N bid, it's a complete gamble into the darkness. You can have QJxxx, xx, AQx,xxx and make exactly the same two bids. I wonder how happy you feel when QJxxx-xx,AQx,xxx bids the same as xxxx,x,AKJxxx,xx. What is your pd supossed to do use the magic 8 ball to determine the contract?

I'm not saying that hiding spades is a clever move that you must always do what I say is that hiding AKJxxx of diamonds is terrible and if you do bid 1s to show your 4 horrible spades you are hiding AKJxxx of diamonds.

 

 

Trpltrbl:

1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx

2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

[jillybean]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=shakqxxxxdcaj10xxx&w=sakjxxhxxxdq10xcxx&e=sqxxxhj10dxxxxckqx&s=s10xxxhxdakjxxxcxx]399|300|Scoring: IMP

W N E S

P 1♥ p 1♠

p 3♣ p 4♣

p 4nt p 5♦ (rkc0314)

p 6♥[/hv]

 

Thanks everyone,

Here's the full hand and bidding (as bad as it is!)

4♣ was one of my "panic bids" I don't know what to, NT looks terrible, 3♦ is too high, can't pass... :)

[Rado]

Hola Luis:-))))))

 

I've never mentioned I was happy.

 

My post was a product of "bitter" real life experience

 

Regards

Rado

[mr1303]

4NT with not 1 but 2 voids?!?

 

No wonder you ended up in a stupid contract.

[Flame]

4NT with not 1 but 2 voids?!?

 

No wonder you ended up in a stupid contract.

Its not that stupid, cue bidding 4h or even 4s could be misinterete by partner to be natural (especially with non 100% solid partnerships) 4nt has the adv of asking about the Q of club, i guess if get an answer of 2 aces and the Q of trump you will bid 7, and maybe even with 1 ace and the Q of club, for a 50% grand slam in the worst case.

[luis]

I think the correct SAYC bidding is:

 

2c - 2d

2h - 3d

4c - 4d

5c - pass

 

Or if you don't open freakish two suiters 2c

 

1h - 1n

4c - 4d

5c - pass

[jillybean]

Thanks all…Luis,

Please tell me more about freakish two suiters, is 2♣ is used to show 2 suiter or 22+

ty

jillybean2

[luis]

Thanks all…Luis,

Please tell me more about freakish two suiters, is 2♣ is used to show 2 suiter or 22+

ty

jillybean2

2♣ is usually used to show any 22+ hand or any distributional hand with 3 or less losers. Others refer to 2♣ as any game-forcing hand.

I usually describe 2♣ as "I really don't want to be passed out at 1x" :-)

 

Some players don't like to open two suiters with 2♣ argueing that the hand is very difficult to describe because you have to show your suits starting at a higher level, it can also be added that if the two suiter doesn't have a lot of power in HCP there's very little risk of being passed out in 1x.

 

The hand you post is too freaky to make an educated guess about what is best, some days it will work opening 1♥ some days it will be better to open 2♣, who knows?

 

Luis

[Trpltrbl]

Trpltrbl:

1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx

2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

 

1 ) that's an option

2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

 

Mike :)

[Flame]

Trpltrbl:

1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx

2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

 

1 ) that's an option

2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

 

Mike :D

Why ? what is the sayc bid for 6-9 hcp with 0-3 spades and 0-1 hearts ?

example

AQx

----

xxxxxx

xxxx

[the hog]

1S is automatic on this hand. To Over 3C I follow up with 3NT.

[Flame]

1S is automatic on this hand. To Over 3C I follow up with 3NT.

Im not sure what the term automatic (which luis uses alot) mean exactly, but when a player like luis say he would bid 1nt rather then 1sp, it mean the is atleast a resonable alternative.

 

I think ill try Luis's approach of not showing a weak 4 card major sometimes, and see how it will result, it feels right to me.

[the hog]

To bid 1NT on this hand is to hide the 2 crucial features of responder's hand - the possession of 4S and the good D suit. To bid 1S on this hand is to at least show one of those features.

 

What is poor opener to do over a 1NT bid holding AKQx AKJxx xx Qx

bid 2S? Yeah sure! Absolute codswallop, as in most partnerships you are showing 6H and 5S! 3NT is the bid virtually all will choose. Now you have lost your 4-4 S fit. Wonderful bidding! Please continue this particularly if you are playing against me.

 

"You can do what luis suggested, skip this major suit because it will show the hand better." To this I just say "nonsense".

Luis said, "if you do bid 1s to show your 4 horrible spades you are hiding AKJxxx of diamonds". So I suppose that now means bidding 1NT shows AKJxxx in diamonds - rofl!

 

You will not lose the D suit if you bid this way either, as after 1H 1S 1N 2C 2D any competent partner will take into account the possibility that Ds may be longer.

 

Finally Kathryn, you will find that most good players do not like to open big 2 suiters with a 2C opening unless they are so strong that a passout is likely. This is clearly NOT the case with this hand. I am constantly amused that those who concot the wonderful auctions after a 2C opening never seem to get any intereference in the auction. You are FAR better placed if you open 1H.

 

I think the auction should have continued

1H 1S

3C 3N

4C 4H

 

To give false preference to 4H on a singleton may look weird. but opener should be aware that this looks totally like a misfit. She has bid really strongly and resp has shown no fit at all. A prudent pass is well in order. Try 5C and probably all pass and thats ok as well.

[EarlPurple]

Firstly your first round bid: I think I was taught to respond 1♠ with hands like that but it's clearly wrong as you are stuck for a rebid after partner's likely 2♣ or 3♣ bid. I prefer 1NT and follow up with a diamond bid but maybe pass if partner bids 2♥. Obviously if partner reverses into 2♠ I will probably jump to 4♠. True there might be a slam if partner has all the right cards (AKQx Axxxx Qxx x) but he rarely does.

 

With partner having bid 3♣ now, 3♦ would be 4th suit forcing, and not showing your suit. You may bid it anyway simply because you have nowhere to go.

 

Partner's 4NT is the worst bid - it is totally irrelevant to him how many aces you hold.

 

Good hand for asking bids.

[the hog]

Why should opener reverse in S to show 4 when you have denied a 4 card holding there, Earl?

 

Any decent bidder will use this bid to show either concentrated values, not a 4 card suit, or some, (me included), play that the reverse now shows a 15-16 1534 or 1543 hand seeing as responder has categorically denied a 4 card holding in the S suit. Or ahem, in a pick up partnership surely the reverse would show a 6-5, again because responder has DENIED a 4 card S suit. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive"! I repeat - you have lost your 4-4 S fit, if there was one - forever.

 

Just one simple little hand to illustrate the futility of this:

 

[hv=n=sakxxhakxxxdxxcxx&w=sjxhxxdqxxckjxxxx&e=sqxxhqjtxxdxxcaqx&s=stxxxhxdakjxxxcxx]399|300|[/hv]

 

1H 1N and Nth has no reason to move. You are -1 in 1NT and I am +170 in 2S. Good bridge, eh?

 

To bid 1NT is just poor bridge - end of story!.

[inquiry]

Hi Kathryn,

 

The "automatic" response with this hand is 1♠. Don't fell bad for making it. Here are some thoughts you might think before making an "automatic" response.

 

What other options are there? Here, playing SAYC there are two other obvious options. 1NT and 2♦ (all the above are giving you 2/1 response to 1♥). Before you make a bid, consider your most likely continuation. If you bid 1♠, can you rebid ♦ in a non-forcing context? For instance, would... 1H-1S-2C-2D be fourth suit forcing the way you play? Would 1H-1S-1NT-2D be new minor forcing.

 

If you can't bid 1♠ and then bid a non-forcing 2♦, maybe you should consider an alterative to 1♠. Playing SAYC you can bid 2♦ then rebid 3♦. (IF you bid 2♦ and your partner rebids 2♥, you can not rebid 2♠ as that is a reverse and shows a great hand). You can also consider a direct 3♦ bid over 1♥ if and only if, you play this to show weak hand and long ♦.

 

Finally, you can bid 1NT and hope to land in a playable spot. On this hand, I would choose 1NT, not so much because of my yucky spades, but because of my doubleton ♣. I think partner most likely rebids will be Pass, 2♥, and 2♣. I have easy rebids over all these... well, pass I get to play, 2♥ by partner, he gets to play, and if he bids 2♣ I will bid 2♦, now not forcing.

 

But rather you bid 1NT or 1♠ your partner's jump to 3♣ is a problem. I would NOT raise to 4♣. First, partner may have only 3 or 4♣'s and was just establishing a force. If I had bid 1NT, I would bid 3♦ over the jump, stering towards 3NT. If I had bid 1♠, I am not going to rebid 3♦, I will instead take a false preference back to 3♥, and drag my feet the rest of the way.

 

Ben

[luis]

Why should opener reverse in S to show 4 when you have denied a 4 card holding there, Earl?

 

Any decent bidder will use this bid to show either concentrated values, not a 4 card suit, or some, (me included), play that the reverse now shows a 15-16 1534 or 1543 hand seeing as responder has categorically denied a 4 card holding in the S suit. Or ahem, in a pick up partnership surely the reverse would show a 6-5, again because responder has DENIED a 4 card S suit. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive"! I repeat - you have lost your 4-4 S fit, if there was one - forever.

 

Just one simple little hand to illustrate the futility of this:

 

[hv=n=sakxxhakxxxdxxcxx&w=sjxhxxdqxxckjxxxx&e=sqxxhqjtxxdxxcaqx&s=stxxxhxdakjxxxcxx]399|300|[/hv]

 

1H 1N and Nth has no reason to move. You are -1 in 1NT and I am +170 in 2S. Good bridge, eh?

 

To bid 1NT is just poor bridge - end of story!.

Ron,

You can construct 1 or 2 hands where not bidding 1♠ makes us miss a 4♠ game, but you can also construct a zillion hands where not showing the diamond suit makes you lose a cold 6♦ or 7♦ or play a silly 3NT contract where you win 5♦ or 6♦.

 

I don't think 1♠ is automatic at all, I would never bid 1♠ holding AKJxxx of diamonds but I understand that some good players would.

Not only the 1♠ bids hides the diamond suit forever but it also will make pd evaluate his hand wrongly most of the time. How do you think pd will evaluate a singleton in spades once you show a spade suit? I personally think that this can only lead to some guess by opener the only single case where the 1♠ bids is where opener does have 4 spades, opener can't reverse and yet you can make a spade game.

 

There're auctions where in order to reach a good diamond slam you may even need to use the spade suit as an anti-splinter bid if pd shows he is short in spades, making him know that you have no wasted values there and no other honors to cuebid in the side suits.

[Trpltrbl]

Trpltrbl:

1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx

2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

 

1 ) that's an option

2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

 

Mike :P

Why ? what is the sayc bid for 6-9 hcp with 0-3 spades and 0-1 hearts ?

example

AQx

----

xxxxxx

xxxx

Flame,

1♠, clearcut, 100% everytime.

But I don't play SAYC, for many reason.

As I have stated before many of times, bridge is a game of constantly adjusting, and making the smallest lie.

Sometimes you are just stuck for a bid that's perfect.

If you don't have the feel, well....... I think I already suggested bingo earlier ;)

 

Mike :D