What does this double mean?

[Trinidad]

MP pairs, unfavorable, you hold:

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=s654ha9873da2ckj6]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

The auction:

 West   North   East   South

      -          -         -       1♥

   Dbl      Pass     2♦     Pass

  Pass      Dbl     Pass     ??

 

- What does partner's double mean?

- What do you do?

 

Rik

[helene_t]

t/o. I bid 2♥.

[pooltuna]

MP pairs, unfavorable, you hold:

Dealer: South Vul: N/S Scoring: MP

♠ 654 ♥ A9873 ♦ A2 ♣ KJ6

 

The auction:

 West   North   East   South

      -          -         -       1♥

   Dbl      Pass     2♦     Pass

  Pass      Dbl     Pass     ??

 

- What does partner's double mean?

- What do you do?

 

Rik

penalty I pass

[aguahombre]

In old fuddy duddy bridge, Partner would redouble if he wanted to start a cooperative doubling situation. So, back in the dark ages where I reside, this double did not want any input from opener.

 

Today, players are too sophisticated to penalize.

[EricK]

Traditionally this is penalty. It seems to me that take out is more useful.

 

If I've never discussed this with partner, I'll probably pass.

[MTSummit]

could it be support double?

 

i would not understand it as penalty because he passed first, if he had no support to heart and a good hand to penalize 2D under this vul. he probably would have bid redouble?

[P_Marlowe]

could it be support double?

 

i would not understand it as penalty because he passed first, if he had no support to heart and a good hand to penalize 2D under this vul. he probably would have bid redouble?

This is not a support double situation.

 

A support double is made by opener, here responder made the X.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

never in a million years would I take this as penalty. tough luck, partner who thinks xx shows 8-11 and pass is 0-7 or 12+!

[aguahombre]

never in a million years would I take this as penalty. tough luck, partner who thinks xx shows 8-11 and pass is 0-7 or 12+!

with responding values, never in a million years would I not respond, unless:

1) I had a Forcing NT with only 2HTs and 1NT/1MX was conventional (like Capp). In that case I would pass the X and then bid 2H, thereby getting back to where I was going all along.

2) I wanted to just penalize whatever they do without enlisting Opener's input by starting with a XX. Showing this by doubling now.

 

With a responding hand and spades, Duh, I would have bid 1S. With club length and only one/zero heart, I would have already shown the club suit by whatever agreements (like Capp). Sans any of these holdings, there is always the green card.

[helene_t]

I can't see how responder can show a good hand with 5+ diamonds by doubling 2♦. Suppose opps had been in 2♣ or 2♠ instead. OK over 2♣ he could bid either 3♣ or 3♦ or 2NT depending on the nature of his hand. But what over 2♠? 2NT would now show two places to play and wouldn't show strength. 3♠ would be a GF and wouldn't show which minor he had.

[aguahombre]

good hand with diamonds either redoubles and then bids diamonds (game force), or transfers to diamonds immediately if less than game force. Only possible if you use their double by employing a system.

[helene_t]

Yes thats what I mean. So the pass denied a good hand with diamonds. So this double can't be penalty.

[gwnn]

so what hand are you envisaging agua??

 

at least takeout is something like 3-2-3-5 8 count. what can you have for "unilateral penalty" ?

[aguahombre]

Yes thats what I mean. So the pass denied a good hand with diamonds. So this double can't be penalty.

KJXX X QJXX KT9X

 

If you don't like the word, "penalty"..then how about "informative"?

[peachy]

This is a competitive double. Letting them play at the two level in a known fit is losing bridge.

Partner is limited by his inability to Rdbl. Secondly, he didn't bid a non-forcing 2D over their double. Thirdly, his double is "under the trump" although likely they both have diamonds but technically, it is "under the trump". All clues point to takeout'ish values but not enough for an initial Rdbl and no 3-card heart support.

 

PS. I probably Pass because we don't have a fit anywhere, 2DX making would not be a tragedy when I expect we go down in our partscore.

[suokko]

In our system this would show some not distributional hand without fit for opener and 8-10 points. So opener are free to convert or compete. This particular hand looks like no-fit hand for our side and opponents are having max 8 card (unlikely but possible) in 2♦ and no others fits for them.

 

Opponents might be in 4-3 git instead of 5-3 if doubler has 4-1-3-5 shape.

[gnasher]

Assuming standard methods over the double, either takeout or penalties is playable and has merit.

 

If it's for takeout, I think it's something like 5-5 in the blacks with almost no high cards. Initially responder didn't want to respond and risk getting too high opposite a strong misfitting hand, but once they settle in 2♦ it's safer to bid, having limited his hand.

 

I don't understand how anyone thinks you can have a fairly balanced hand with normal responding values. Don't such hands bid 1NT over the double?

 

If it's for penalties, it's a hand that is fairly sure that it wants to defend whatever they play in - something like a 4144 11-count. Starting with pass rather than redouble has three benefits: it makes it harder for oppponents to find their best fit (because advancer doesn't have a pass available), it reduces the chance that opener will bid in front of you, and it means that occasionally you benefit from a raise by the doubler, in a sequence like

  1♥ dbl pass 1♠

  pass 2♠

Edited December 6, 2009 by gnasher

[helene_t]

Thanks Aqua (and gnasher), that's clear. Obviously this is something to discuss with partners. The only p I have discussed this with is Shogi. I just assumed everyone played it as t/o but obviously I was wrong.

[Trinidad]

Our hands:

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sq82hqd86543cat54&s=s654ha9873da2ckj6]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

I get the idea that this is a generation conflict situation. My partner is about 20 years older than I am. I am with Helene and Gwnn: take out with the aim to lift them a level, in case opener doesn't have the distribution to still do something. I bid 2♥, but was thinking of bidding 2♠.

 

Partner said that he "had them", to which I thought "not if they would have bid spades". (If he would have bid 1NT over opponents 1♠, I would have taken it as showing a weak 5-5 minor hand, not as an offer to play.)

 

Rik

[suokko]

I don't understand how anyone thinks you can have a fairly balanced hand with normal responding values. Don't such hands bid 1NT over the double?

Why would you bid 1NT with balanced hand? You can bid 1NT with unbalanced ♣ hand.

[gnasher]

Why would you bid 1NT with balanced hand? You can bid 1NT with unbalanced ♣ hand.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

[MTSummit]

could it be support double?

 

i would not understand it as penalty because he passed first, if he had no support to heart and a good hand to penalize 2D under this vul. he probably would have bid redouble?

This is not a support double situation.

 

A support double is made by opener, here responder made the X.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

my opinion:

 

1) it can't be a strong hand (11p+) with short heart & 4+ diamond (or probably have bid redouble) as penalty for all opps' bids from this 2D

 

2) it is not good to make penalty double if the hand is not strong enough (like 7-10p), opps still have other contracts to go

 

3) if it was a take-out with interest in black suits (4S & 5C for example), why did he passed first? what if the opener had a weak hand with something like 2=5=4=2? it would be very dangerous under this vul.

 

4) i'd rather understand it as some invitational balanced hand with heart support (support double, or if anyone could find a better name), for example 3=3=3=4/3=3=4=3, 10-12p, and he could not find a good bid after the double. is it possible?

 

thx & regards

[suokko]

Why would you bid 1NT with balanced hand? You can bid 1NT with unbalanced ♣ hand.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

transfers in competition of course.

 

But of course without transfers you could bid with this balanced 8-10 hand the 1NT to steal the contract there.

[gnasher]

Why would you bid 1NT with balanced hand? You can bid 1NT with unbalanced ♣ hand.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

transfers in competition of course.

 

But of course without transfers you could bid with this balanced 8-10 hand the 1NT to steal the contract there.

So why do you think I prefaced my comments with "Assuming standard methods over the double"? If you play transfers, of course it's a different question.

[aguahombre]

Why would you bid 1NT with balanced hand? You can bid 1NT with unbalanced ♣ hand.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

transfers in competition of course.

 

But of course without transfers you could bid with this balanced 8-10 hand the 1NT to steal the contract there.

So why do you think I prefaced my comments with "Assuming standard methods over the double"? If you play transfers, of course it's a different question.

Sorry, all my posts on this string were based on Transfers/1MX. For some unknown reason, I assumed wide-spread use of that ---my bad. Now I understand why my logic was rejected by several.