bluffing -

[vanilla]

how come this always makes opponents want to hit you ?

and how come even TD's seem not to be able to handle it ???

was in a tourney where partner opened 1 H - thereafter passed

my bid 1 S and I was about to play that....then dymmy pops up

with 3S and a single H opps yelled for TD

what was more surprising was that TD just dismissed us from table

with no comments at all..........can anybody fill me in with what

rules are for bluffing and if rules are different in different countries

[Flame]

bluffing is not against bridge rules as long as it does the same to partner, and by that i mean there is no way in the world you could predict that . This "cant predict things" is not something you can just say, this mean you had no clue, or even could have no clue, for example from today you will have to alert any 1h in the same situation , because you are no longer in the possition to say "i couldnt know" , if you were in that possition before, for example if you both read a book in which this "bluff" was presented then you just cheated, because you had more info then your opponents did.

Beside this any club can deside not to allow bluffing , even if the bridge law accept them.

I am really against this kind of play, it doesnt worth it, especially if you consider yourself a good player and have intentions of wining a tournament.

[Free]

it's no problem to bluff, but YOU have to bid as if you don't know it! Your 4♠ bid will be dependent of your support in ♥ most of the time... If it's clear you suddenly knew it was a psych, then you'll get adjusted scores.

[Flame]

If it's clear you suddenly knew it was a psych

Imo it doesnt have to be clear, if there is any chance you knew or even could have suspected it (like when it happend before) i would give adjusted score.

[luke warm]

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

 

in both those instances i had no clue his bid meant anything other than what they showed.. .however, in future tourneys if he bids 1nt in 3rd i think it's incumbent upon me to pm the opps and say "he has psyched in that position before" or when he raises a major from one to two, pm them and say "he's been known to make that bid when relatively weak"

 

i don't *know* if i'm required to do that, but it seems right... any thoughts?

[AceOfHeart]

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

[BurnKryten]

how come this always makes opponents want to hit you ?

and how come even TD's seem not to be able to handle it ???

was in a tourney where partner opened 1 H - thereafter passed

my bid 1 S and I was about to play that....then dymmy pops up

with 3S and a single H opps yelled for TD

what was more surprising was that TD just dismissed us from table

with no comments at all..........can anybody fill me in with what

rules are for bluffing and if rules are different in different countries

 

This sounds like an ordinary, successful psych to me. It is legal to make any call at your turn, provided it isn't a concealed partnership understanding, and is not restricted by the conditions of contest of the tournament (For example, psyching a strong artificial two clubs opening is disallowed by some Sponsoring Organizations). It is also not permitted to make "illegal allowance" for your partner having psyched, but that's hardly the case here.

 

Unless the TD had clearly posted in the tournament conditions that psychic bids are not allowed, then nothing illegal has happened here. Dismissing you from the tournament without comment also seems wrong - doesn't the TD have an obligation to inform competitors why they are being penalized?

 

Regarding some of the other posters - I disagree that one incident makes an "agreement". I do not believe it is useful to one's opponents to disclose "Of the many times my partner has opened 1NT in third position, one was psychic." Perhaps some measure of frequency of psychics by a particular player or partnership would be more useful, or perhaps a description of situations where psychics are more likely. For my part, I am vastly more likely to psych in third position, white on red - is this alertable, or just bridge?

[hrothgar]

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

As I recall, I bid a forcing NT and then bid 2♠. Could be wrong, however, I can think of many 3 point hands where I would bid an immediate 2♠.

 

Maybe

 

Kxx

x

xxxx

xxxxx

 

or some such...

[Trpltrbl]

Psyching, or bluffing, is a part of bridge. I am sure if you would have gotten a bad score opps would not have called director.

They are just crybabies.

 

Mike ;)

[luke warm]

i've played with hrothgar in two aba tourneys.. he psyched a 1nt opening in 3rd seat in one, and bid 2♠ in response to my 1♠ in the other, with 2 or 3 hcp

As I recall, I bid a forcing NT and then bid 2♠. Could be wrong, however, I can think of many 3 point hands where I would bid an immediate 2♠.

 

Maybe

 

Kxx

x

xxxx

xxxxx

 

or some such...

you're right, so you did :D

 

all i remember is, the opps got mad but had no reason to... geez

[the hog]

I would lodge a complaint about the Td's behaviour with Uday. This behaviour is unconscionable.

[Flame]

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

Imo and im sure not alone there, psyching is what takes the fun out of bridge, psycs as i see them are anti bridge. I told my partner today that if he psyc i will bid 7nt right away, i dont like it when im not allowed to take part in making the result of the board, i consider myself a good player and i want to influent, and this is exactly what the psych take away from me, this is way i dont like it.

[Gerardo]

Flame: In a word, DON'T. If you don't like psyches, go lobby to get them banned in the Laws (don't wish you good luck in that) or maybe CoC, easier. Till then, they are fair game.

Psyching is taking a unusual decision, but one which psycher think it will get a better result for his/her side. It may be right, or wrong.

OTOH, bidding 7NT is just giving the hand away. Please, DON'T DO THAT. Thank you.

[the hog]

"i consider myself a good player"

 

I do not know of ANY top player who does not occasionally, sometimes very rarely, psyche. As I have stated many times, it is a completely acceptable part of the game. To describe it as "anti bridge" is nonsense!

 

Furthermore to bid 7N in this situation is totally unethical behaviour.

[Trpltrbl]

I agree with Ron.

Psyching part of the game, like it or not, just deal with it.

 

Mike :D

[Flame]

Flame: In a word, DON'T. If you don't like psyches, go lobby to get them banned in the Laws (don't wish you good luck in that) or maybe CoC, easier. Till then, they are fair game.

Psyching is taking a unusual decision, but one which psycher think it will get a better result for his/her side. It may be right, or wrong.

OTOH, bidding 7NT is just giving the hand away. Please, DON'T DO THAT. Thank you.

I have every right to expect my partner not to psych, i dont see any problem with that.

 

Psychs are a problem in the bridge law, because you nearly can never say that the psych's partner didnt have even the slightest advantage over the opponents, its enough that you and your partner both read about with a specific psych, or both read this thread, you already have some info about your partner bids that your opponents didnt have. With all this said, dont get me wrong, i never complained (or even called a director) when opponents psyched against me.

[Cascade]

removing psyching takes the fun and out of bidding!, unless the tourney director state explictly that psyches are banned, it should be allowed under the laws of the game.

Imo and im sure not alone there, psyching is what takes the fun out of bridge, psycs as i see them are anti bridge. I told my partner today that if he psyc i will bid 7nt right away, i dont like it when im not allowed to take part in making the result of the board, i consider myself a good player and i want to influent, and this is exactly what the psych take away from me, this is way i dont like it.

Bidding 7NT will give you control over the result on the board.

 

I would judge a frivilous bid of 7NT as worse than a psyche. The frivilous 7NT ruins the fun for everyone. A psyche still gives the opponents a legitimate bridge problem to solve.

 

From yesterday

 

[hv=d=&v=n&s=skxxhaxxxxdjxxcqj]133|100|[/hv]

 

2♥ Pass ?

 

2♥ = 5-10 five hearts and four or more of a minor.

 

I bid a natural non-forcing 2♠.

 

I think everyone enjoyed this psyche. And I think the opponents would still have enjoyed it even if they did not get a top.

 

I scrambled 3-off -150 and unfortunately 140 was the limit of the hand for the opponents.

[ehhh]

I can live with a pysch bid, as distasteful as they are, if indeed it is a psych bid; but, all too often players are making destructive & unsportmanlike bids under the guise that they are psychs. I for one would be interested in seeing the whole hand before passing snap judgments on the TD.

[Flame]

Bidding 7NT will give you control over the result on the board.

 

I would judge a frivilous bid of 7NT as worse than a psyche. The frivilous 7NT ruins the fun for everyone. A psyche still gives the opponents a legitimate bridge problem to solve.

 

From yesterday

 

[hv=d=&v=n&s=skxxhaxxxxdjxxcqj]133|100|[/hv]

 

2♥ Pass ?

 

2♥ = 5-10 five hearts and four or more of a minor.

 

I bid a natural non-forcing 2♠.

 

I think everyone enjoyed this psyche. And I think the opponents would still have enjoyed it even if they did not get a top.

 

I scrambled 3-off -150 and unfortunately 140 was the limit of the hand for the opponents.

Bidding 7nt is worse then a psych, i agree.

Now consurning your psych, you talks about it like its a normal bid, if so dont you think the opponents have the right to know about it ?

I'm sure you dont feel like you have cheated, and im not saying you did, but law and the idea behind the law is that you cant by any mean have any extra information over your opponents. Ask yourself, are their psyches you tend to make more then others ? yes ? then you break the law, because your partner know something the opponents dont.

Its almost impossible to play 100% honest when using psyches, you will nearly always have some kind of extra knowlege.

[the hog]

"I can live with a pysch bid, as distasteful as they are, "

 

Yet again another who does not understand the Laws of the game!

If you never psyche, the opponents will be too trusting of your bidding. Here is an example:

(1H) X (1S) ?

You hold Kxxxx xxx AJx xx

If you know the opponents always have their bid, you would be mad to enter the auction with 2S. If these particular opponents have psyched once or twice in the past, then 2S is far more palatable. So you bid 2S and this time pd has doubled on xxx of S and the 1S bidder had his bid and you are going for a number. Never making the opponents guess is really poor bridge.

Psyches "distasteful"? What an absolute load of codswallop!

[inquiry]

I would lodge a complaint about the Td's behaviour with Uday. This behaviour is unconscionable.

I agree in principle, however, some TD ban psyching. I avoid these tournments, but if I played in one, I would not psyche, and if I did psyche, I would accept my "punishment" without complaint. The only explaintation for the directors action here, it seems, was psyche's must have been banned in the condition of contest.

 

Psyches are a necessary part of the game. Try them, you will liike them....

 

Ben

[luke warm]

If you never psyche, the opponents will be too trusting of your bidding. Here is an example:

(1H) X (1S) ?

You hold Kxxxx xxx AJx xx

If you know the opponents always have their bid, you would be mad to enter the auction with 2S.

this happened to me a few months back.. i *think* my rho was malucy.. i had a hand kinda like the one posted but a little better and my lho opened (1H) p (1s) my bid... now it's true i'd seen mike play before, and i'd seen him psych there (i'm assuming it was him, it was a long time back)... so i bid 2S and they passed it out

 

i don't think i was doubled, but i did get ripped (yeah he had his bid :D)... just one of those things, i'd bid 2S again in that situation, against that opponent.. maybe :D

[Cascade]

Now consurning your psych, you talks about it like its a normal bid, if so dont you think the opponents have the right to know about it ?

I'm sure you dont feel like you have cheated, and im not saying you did, but law and the idea behind the law is that you cant by any mean have any extra information over your opponents. Ask yourself, are their psyches you tend to make more then others ? yes ? then you break the law, because your partner know something the opponents dont.

Its almost impossible to play 100% honest when using psyches, you will nearly always have some kind of extra knowlege.

I am not sure what you see in my post that says that this is normal. I think it was far from normal in fact at the time I was not even sure that it was a good psyche. We could have had a miracle 4♥ or the opponents might have not had 4♠ or they might not have even had a spade fit. And it turned out to cost me a near bottom.

 

The laws allow any psyche not based on a partnership agreement. In addition the regulators may forbid conventional psychic calls. This is the extent of the law regarding psychic calls.

 

I know that I have no partnership agreement to make a psychic call in this or any other situation. In the situation described we much prefer to pre-empt than to psyche - five trumps is something worth telling partner about. In my experience when I have had a choice between a psychic call or a pre-empt almost always the pre-empt is as good and sometimes it is better. Nevertheless we will on occasion psyche. I can not actually remember the previous time that I psyched with this partner - although coincidentally I did psyche again about three boards later. This second one was not actually a psyche but a minor deviation - I opened 1NT showing Good 11 to 14 with 10 hcp and a singleton. The regulations in use required me to fill in a psyche form. I filled one in for the first psyche but did not bother for the second one - I would have claimed that this was not a gross deviation as required in the laws for a something to be a psyche. Although partner did joke that it looked "gross" when I had to put it down as dummy.

 

Are there psyches that I make more frequently than others? Quite possibly but I normally psyche relatively rarely so I do not think this is relevant. At any rate the frequency of your psyches is not necessarily relevant. The laws state that 'habitual violations may create an implicit partnership understanding'. Note that is "may create" not "will create".

 

However certainly if I thought that we had an understanding then I would expect that our side would divulge that information to the opponents. My partner yesterday said to the opponents after my explanation that "noone would ever accuse Wayne of not giving all the information". In the situation that I reported earlier then our explanation would become 2♠ is to play but he may not have spades. This then would no longer be a psyche but a special partnership agreement and a legal one where I play. Over that agreement we would then be free to play redouble for rescue etc. Over a natural 2♠ as is our current agreement a subsequent redouble would show a maximum 2♠ inviting further competition. In my view it is certainly incompatible to play 2♠ natural and subsequent redouble for rescue - this just confirms that you had an undisclosed agreement.

 

I am happy to think that I can psyche occasionally and play 100% honest and also that my opponents can also use the same tactics.

 

I think the potential to psyche adds a richness to our wonderful game not that it detracts from that richness. Of course it is still possible for a player to have a concealed partnership agreement when he "psyches". However this does not justify banning psyches as there is already a law that deals with concealed partnership understandings.

[mishovnbg]

Flame: In a word, DON'T. If you don't like psyches, go lobby to get them banned in the Laws (don't wish you good luck in that) or maybe CoC, easier. Till then, they are fair game.

Psyching is taking a unusual decision, but one which psycher think it will get a better result for his/her side. It may be right, or wrong.

OTOH, bidding 7NT is just giving the hand away. Please, DON'T DO THAT. Thank you.

I have every right to expect my partner not to psych, i dont see any problem with that.

 

Psychs are a problem in the bridge law, because you nearly can never say that the psych's partner didnt have even the slightest advantage over the opponents, its enough that you and your partner both read about with a specific psych, or both read this thread, you already have some info about your partner bids that your opponents didnt have. With all this said, dont get me wrong, i never complained (or even called a director) when opponents psyched against me.

You have more advantages playing with regular partner long time about usage of bids and cards as extended version of any system/marking, because psyches are rare.

Misho

[AceOfHeart]

The thing about banning psyches takes the fun out of bridsge not because you psyche but because you would not suspect your opps of psyching when you have a good hand. Fore example if you hold ♠KQJxxxx ♥AQ ♦KJxx ♣A and your opps open 1♠ in 3rd sit, if you banned psyches, it would mean he will have a real spade opening,and you will not be drawned to do anything drastic, However if psyches is allowed, you could be drawned to do something brillant/stupid depending on whether the opps actually psyches, which adds to the unpredictabilty of the bidding