Forcing or not?

[nickf]

I don't have a lot of experience with 2/1 and was playing with someone last night who did - but we werent on the same page on this auction:

 

1C-1D

1N-2S

2NT-3C

 

I passed 3C

 

Notes

- 1C could be 2+

- 1NT was bid under the pretext that I should show a balanced hand first, then resolve shape (I was 2434)

- 2S was believed to be GF by he who bid it.

- We were were playing NMF and while I assumed at the time it may not apply after 1C-1D I still thought it was technically correct to rebid 1NT.

 

What's the contemporary consensus these days:

- on the status of 2S?

- on opener's rebid in the context of playing nmf

- If 2S is F1, how about 3C now? Is that GF?

 

nickf

sydney

[mike777]

I don't have a lot of experience with 2/1 and was playing with someone last night who did - but we werent on the same page on this auction:

 

1C-1D

1N-2S

2NT-3C

 

I passed 3C

 

Notes

- 1C could be 2+

- 1NT was bid under the pretext that I should show a balanced hand first, then resolve shape (I was 2434)

- 2S was believed to be GF by he who bid it.

- We were were playing NMF and while I assumed at the time it may not apply after 1C-1D I still thought it was technically correct to rebid 1NT.

 

What's the contemporary consensus these days:

-  on the status of 2S?

- on opener's rebid in the context of playing nmf

- If 2S is F1, how about 3C now? Is that GF?

 

nickf

sydney

Partner has 5d and 4s and game force. 2s is 100% gf.

 

that means with 4d and 4s and game force or less, start with one spade.

 

 

Sounds like pard may have:

 

 

Akxx..void.....AKxxx.....xxxx

[aguahombre]

What Mike said. And you seem to be a bit concerned about your 1NT rebid. After 1C-1D in 2/1 style it is common to rebid 1NT on any balanced weak NT opening. Partner obviously is on the same page with that, or he needn't have tried for a spade fit with his game-forcing rebid.

 

3C on your auction was not only game forcing, but suggesting of slam.

[helene_t]

Rebidding 1NT with this hand ("Walsh") is not "standard" but is probably "expert standard" anyway. You can play NMF if you play that. Otherwise NMF would not apply, and responder would have to make a "fake" reverse before supporting clubs if he has a GF hand. So if not playing Walsh, 3♣ is clearly forcing.

 

If you do play Walsh you could agree to play this as NF (i.e. to bid diamonds before a 4-card major responder only needs inv+, not GF values) but I think GF is standard.

[andy_h]

For simplicity's sake, I still play 2-way checkback over 1♣-1♦-1NT. So 2♠ for me would be GF with longer diamonds, as 4♦4♠ would bid 2♦, or iow the NMF bid.

 

After a NMF, generally the auction is forced up to 2NT. So if that was the case, if responder bids over 2NT then it's GF otherwise he could have just bailed in 2♣ or 2NT. This applies in the 3rd option where if 2♠ was F1, as 3♣ is too small of a target (could have passed 2N or rest in clubs earlier) and is looking for the best game.

[pooltuna]

[snip]

 

What's the contemporary consensus these days:

-  on the status of 2S?

- on opener's rebid in the context of playing nmf

- If 2S is F1, how about 3C now? Is that GF?

 

nickf

sydney

2♠ is 100% forcing even in SAYC. You will find that most play this as an unbalanced hand with 5+♦ and 4+♠ with ♦>♠

 

NMF context DNA

 

3♣ is forcing even in SAYC

 

generally speaking this auction is GFing once you reach 3♣ even by extremely light openers

[aguahombre]

Obviously, Some people have different concepts about auctions after 1C-1D when playing 2/1. But NMF does not need to be used to complicate things.

 

Responder only bids 1D instead of 1M if he has game forcing values AND longer diamonds.

 

I believe, and practice, that 1c-1d-1NT should be alerted as it might bypass with a balanced hand. But responder doesn't need to use any fancy checkback with a Major and GF --he can just bid the Major. We also alert 1c-1d-1M as guaranteeing an unbalanced hand.

 

One of the advantages of 2/1 is that the suits can be bid in their natural order --longest first -- in game force situations. Thus, fewer gadgets are required to establish strain.

 

With 4 diamonds, 4 of a Major, and GF values responder doesn't need to respond 1D, so no exotic checkback to show 4M and 4D is necessary.

[hanp]

Not sure what this has to do with 2/1.

 

I'd play 2S as gameforcing. I wouldn't like to be forced to bid 1NT with any 2434 hand.

[aguahombre]

Not sure what this has to do with 2/1.

 

I'd play 2S as gameforcing. I wouldn't like to be forced to bid 1NT with any 2434 hand.

it is the same as Opening 1NT with that pattern with 15 to 17. You just do it. And you would have an easy 3D call after 1C-1d-1NT-2S.

 

The 1D response might have been a noise with a bare response and not the 8 to 10 required for a systemic 1NT response (QXX QXX KXX XXXX). But everything is dependent upon your style. If you prefer up the line, bid up the line. I was describing the old fuddy duddy 2/1 auction.