I missed a slam, again...

[mdaw]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saq8hk8652daqcj98&s=skj63hdj72cakq762]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Can you suggest me how the bidding should go, according to 2/1 principles?

[maggieb]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

[hrothgar]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

Not sure that I would cuebid shortness opposite partner's suit...

(Actually, I'm sure that I wouldn't)

[maggieb]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

Not sure that I would cuebid shortness opposite partner's suit...

Construct a hand for me consistent with the auction up to 4H, including 4H, which does not have heart shortness.

[mdaw]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

I'm not sure if i would risk 4♣ instead of 3NT. The scoring was matchpoints.

[hrothgar]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

Not sure that I would cuebid shortness opposite partner's suit...

Construct a hand for me consistent with the auction up to 4H, including 4H, which does not have heart shortness.

♠ KQxx

♥ Ax

♦ xx

♣ AQJxx

[maggieb]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

Not sure that I would cuebid shortness opposite partner's suit...

Construct a hand for me consistent with the auction up to 4H, including 4H, which does not have heart shortness.

♠ KQxx

♥ Ax

♦ xx

♣ AQJxx

Thanks for posting a hand that would rebid 2S over 2D (or open 1N depending on your style, I would open it 1N).

[maggieb]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

I'm not sure if i would risk 4♣ instead of 3NT. The scoring was matchpoints.

Maybe

 

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-3D

3S-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

 

then.

 

It helps to play 3D is artificial and just shows doubt about playing 3N. In fact maybe this should have been my original auction to begin with.

[Fluffy]

For partner to cue hearts he can just have 4216 with ♥K

 

Its sad that our diamonds are so poor, because otherwise I like raising diamonds with 3 cards to show the heart void at the 3 level

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQ8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> K8652 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> J98 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KJ63 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> J72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AKQ762 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

Can you suggest me how the bidding should go, according to 2/1 principles?

Good post

 

I thought this was a tough one at MP:

 

 

1c=1h

1s=2d

3c is the easy part.

 

 

Now if responder rebids 4c getting to 6c should be easy, just not sure what I would rebid with that responder hand. Note make the 2D the 2H.

 

 

I can understand if responder rebids 3nt if you are used to your partner not opening sound. When opener has these unbalanced 14-16 point hands it can be tough to bid. Getting to minor suits slams at MP is tough.

[jdonn]

1C-1H

1S-2D

3C-4C

4H-4S

5H-6C

Not sure that I would cuebid shortness opposite partner's suit...

Construct a hand for me consistent with the auction up to 4H, including 4H, which does not have heart shortness.

♠ KQxx

♥ Ax

♦ xx

♣ AQJxx

Thanks for posting a hand that would rebid 2S over 2D (or open 1N depending on your style, I would open it 1N).

I would bid neither of those things, and bid that hand exactly as Richard would.

 

That being said, I still agree with cuebidding 4♥ here.

[mikeh]

1♣  1♥

1♠  2♦

3♣  ?

 

The auction to this point should be close to unanimous amongst 2/1 game bidders.

 

As an aside, I strongly disagree with maggie about opening 1N with KQxx Ax xx AQJxx....I think that anyone who does that plays far too much matchpoints (I know, this was mp) in too poor a field. This hand has no rebid problems and significant suit orientation. And is too strong and too weak for 1N (too strong in playing strength, too weak in diamonds...the diamond flaw is irrelevant in and of itself).

 

Now....responder might be tempted to bid notrump to protect his red suit holdings.

 

In a sophisticated partnership, the value bid might be 4N...the hand is way too good to bid 3N.... while the slow route to 3N, via 4SF, suggests doubt, the usual source of doubt on this auction is opener's heart support...so 2♦ then 3N suggests responder was trying to keep hearts in the picture, not a club slam.

 

If responder bid 4N, I think opener has just enough to bid 6♣.....but it isn't clear.

 

If responder chose not to bid 4N (perhaps because its unavailable to this partnership as natural, or feared to be ambiguous), then responder is sort of stuck.....3N has attractions especially in a weak field, but I think that 4♣ is better....especially if we play a style that allows for 4N as a contract in minor suit slam auctions...again, probably unavailable especially to the type of partnership that doesn't allow for the natural jump to 4N.

 

Oh well.....if playing with poor methods, we still have to go beyond game, since opener might hold, for example, KJxx void Kxx AKQxxx and now we've missed a laydown grand...even if he pulls 3N (should he?) how do we get to grand?

 

So, if unable to bid 4N anywhere, to play, I'd drive to 6♣ by bidding 4♣.

 

I don't like the idea of 4♥ as a cue by opener: KJxx Qx x AKxxxx....opposite AQx AJ109x xx Jxx why can't we play 4♥?

 

I like the rule that we never make our first cue to show shortness in a suit bid naturally by partner.

[mike777]

I agree, I thought that 4nt as natural, if an option, is a good choice.

 

:) For those of us that play kickback, 4nt over 3c would have to be natural. :)

[P_Marlowe]

My main problem with 4C over 3C is, that 3C did not promise add. strength (*),

5-4 still being possible, which means, even if 4NT is natural, it is unclear, if

one should bid it.

 

(*) I am assunming 2D as GF, playing 2D as inv.+ one would be forced to bid

3D as a response to 2D, dont ask me, how to proceed after 3D, although I

prefer to play 2D as inv.+ ...

 

The following hand was given

 

KQxx

Ax

xx

AQJxx

 

I would guess, that even with

 

KQxx

xx

xx

AQJxx

 

the recommendate answer to 2D is 3C.

Opening 1NT is not an option, and I doubt that a 1NT rebid is an option

either, ... and the hand is an opening bid.

And does one really want to play 4NT oppossite this hand?

 

Most likely the best bid after 3C is 3D by responder, at least responder

gets by another round of bidding, and maybe openers answer enlightens him.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

Ugly problem, no easy solution.

 

The bidding for me would start with

 

1 ♣ 1 ♥

1♠ 2♦

3♣

 

I would be very tempted to bid just a lazy 3 NT here, after all, this is mp.

But the hand is just a little too good to give up yet, so:

.... 4 ♣ (In the system I play this is KC for club too)

5♣ (Great hand for the bidding so far, 2 KCs, trump queen)

.... 6 NT ( I want the lead comming into my hand and it is mp....)

[hanp]

I would bid 2H over 2D with KQxx Ax xx AQJxx.

 

1C - 1H

1S - 2D

3C - 4C

 

is easy, looking at both hands.

[mdaw]

Here are some statistics what was played at 72 boards:

 

3NT - 48

6NT - 19 (only 3 made it)

6♣ - 4

5♣ - 1

 

http://brydz.wlkp.pl/irek/2009/otp007.html

 

Thanks for responses.

[mike777]

Here are some statistics what was played at 72 boards:

 

3NT - 48

6NT - 19 (only 3 made it)

6♣ - 4

5♣ - 1

 

http://brydz.wlkp.pl/irek/2009/otp007.html

 

Thanks for responses.

Note, 3nt making 6 or even 7 is a good score. :)

 

 

I did an email poll and one voted for 4c the rest for 3nt at MP. Fun thread, ty.

[mike777]

FWIW

 

This is an email from a buddy regarding this deal.

 

 

 

 

"So the question remains, how does opener show this hand, as opposed to a bad hand. The auction has gone 1C-1H-1S-2D. Opener could have:

1) a balanced hand with 4-3-3-3, 4-2-3-4, 4-3-2-4, or 4-2-2-5 distribution.

2) an unbalanced hand with a heart fragment: 4-3-1-5, 4-3-0-6.

3) an unbalanced hand with a diamond fragment: 4-1-3-5, 4-0-3-6, or 4-0-4-5

4) an unbalanced hand with no fragment: 4-1-1-7, 5-1-1-6, etc.

 

The question is how to show each hand type?

2H should show 3 hearts, usually balanced; 3H should show 3 hearts, unbalanced. This takes care of all of the hands from category 2 and half of category 1.

2N should show a diamond stopper with either the balanced hand or the heart shortness. This takes care of some of the hands from category 1, and a few from category 3.

2S should be a punt bid, which I will describe in a second.

This leaves 3C, 3D, 3S and 3N.

 

Here is my suggestion:

3C=minimum (or sub-minimum) opener with 4 spades and 5+ clubs (not 3 hearts)

3D=good hand with 4 spades and 5+ clubs (not 3 hearts)

3S=5 spades and 6+ clubs

3N=Good hand with 4-2-2-5 and a diamond stopper

 

So 2S will cover the remaining hands: balanced without 3 hearts and no diamond stopper, or unbalanced with diamond fragment (may have a stopper)

I think this structure will work well, and is fairly logical. The "weird" bid of 3D over 2D will be a wake-up call. On the hand given, the 3D bid will make it easy to find 6C. Notice that 7C is cold on the given layout. Can everyone spot the line to 13 tricks?"

[hanp]

I think your email buddy should consider using the cheapest bid more frequently.

[kenrexford]

Funny thing.

 

A while ago, one of our greatest post starters asked a question regarding whether we like or dislike 4SF auctions. In jest, I eventually suggested that an alternative would be that fourth suit be more like Lebensohl and weak, allowing anything else to be GF, to get to the point more quickly. Well, this might work here, especially with a strict Walsh approach.

 

1♣-P-1♥-P-

1♠*-P-3♣

 

If 1♠ is not bid with four spades and balanced, then it shows (3)4 spades and 5+ clubs. Responder can then bid 2♣ preference (weak), 2♦...3♣ with a passable club raise, but 3♣ direct as a GF club raise. I think this start works better, somewhat.

 

This could even be improved more with 2♣ as an artificial bid (invitational+ with clubs or GF any shape without a five-card major). Not directly, but inferentially. In that event, Responder's 3♣ call would show club support, GF values, and hence by force five hearts (did not start 2♣), getting that issue off his chest.

 

Still, nothing really gets us to the ultimate point of the whole thing.

 

So, what about other options?

 

Well, one just came to mind, if you care to ask. LOL

 

I kind of like the theory I heard from Fred Hamilton a while back. After a 1♣ opening, he doesn't have an invitational bid with a balanced hand. 1NT shows 8+ up to whatever is not good enough to force game. That way, 2NT is GF.

 

Well, you wouldn't bid 2NT with a five-card major, or could you?

 

1♣-P-2NT = balanced, 15-17, would have opened 1NT, might have a 5-card major. Rebids by Opener: 3♣ is Puppet Stayman (no need to worry about the 5-4 majors problem). 3♦/3♥/3♠ are club rebids of some variety (shortness?). 3NT to play.

 

With this deal, there is still a problem, though. Opener could bid 3♥ to show the short heart, but he's more likely to bid 3♣ Puppet, getting a 3♥ reply, very discouraging.

 

I think the bottom line is that slams are very hard to bid in minors, when there is a 5-0 holding in a major, and when 4SF therefore gets into the mix.