Trial Bids

[Cave_Draco]

A couple of questions about Trial Bids for leading-edge practicioners, :-D.

 

Traditionally, in the sequence 1S-2S-3C/D/H, the last bid is a Trial Bid suggesting opener has losers in the named suit & asking if responder can help with that suit.

 

1) Is there another view?

 

2) What about the sequence 1S-2S-2NT? What should opener have & what are responder's options?

 

P.S. A "Ben on Trial Bids" would, I think, be a useful addition to the B&I string.

[luis]

Well, there're a lot of "views"

I will try to put in this post both a summary of what is used and some personal opinions about the subject.

 

Let's start with: Variations for trial bids

(Used after 1M-2M or 1m-1M;2M usually)

 

a) Help asking bids

3c/3d/3OM asking for help in the suit bid (OM=Other major) this bids have a big problem: no matter if pd can cover or not your losers the opening lead is pinpointed to the opps. This is I think the first historical approach to trial bids, discontinued in modern times for the reason I mentioned.

 

:rolleyes: Long suit trials

3c/3d/3OM show 4+ cards in the suit bein bid so pd with some complement in the suit can go to game. The problem of this approach is that is difficult for pd to know if a singleton or doubleton in the suit is useful, to prevent such dilemmas you have to agree that using long suit trials singletons and doubletons are NOT useful.

You can use 2N as invitational without a second suit using this approach.

 

c) Short suit trials

3c/3d/3OM show a singleton (rarely a doubleton) in the suit being bid so pd will go to game without waste in opener's short suit. It's easy to know that Axxx is useful as well as xxxx while KJxx or QJxx are not. Without waste in the suit pd can go to game even when he has a minimum 2M bid.

You can use 2NT as "invitational without a short suit using this approach"

 

Of course with a maximum you should go to game no matter what pd has.

 

If you must play one of the three mentioned above I recommend option "C" invite showing a short suit.

With both a,b and c you can use 2NT as a "general" invitation which frequently is a very good bid wihout giving away any info. You can use 2NT when you don't want pd to evaluate his holdings in any suit or when you think you can mislead your pd. For example if you have 5422 with Jxxx in the 4 card suit you'd better not show the 4 card suit as a second suit.

 

Finally there're ways to COMBINE both short and long suit trials bid using the 2NT bid one approach is

 

Example after 1s-2s

3c/3d/3h = long suit trials

2NT asks pd to bid 3c, after 3c, 3d,3h and 3s show a short suit in diamonds, hearts and clubs respectively. (3M always used to show shortage in clubs the suit that responder bids after 2N)

With this approach you can both invite by a long suit or a short suit loosing the "generic" 2NT invitation.

 

Hope this is useful, feel free to ask questions.

 

Luis

[inquiry]

Well, your traditional view is for "LONG SUIT Trial bids". There is also the option of playing short suit trial bids, where you want your partner to have stuff somewhere else. Then for the truly adventuresome, you can play boht long suit and short suit trial bids. To do this, you need to impliment a relay over the raise as artificial, and rope 2NT in too. You can bid either long or short suit trials first, and rely wiht the other. For the sake of argument, let's assume you relay for short suit.. then....

 

1H-2H-3C = Long suit trial in clubs

1H-2H-3D = Long suit trial in diamonds

1H-2H-2NT = Long suit trial in spades (2S is relay for short suit trial)

 

1H-2H-2S-2NT(forced), then

• 3C = short in clubs
  
• 3D = short in diamonds
  
• 3H = short in spades
  

Likewise,

1S-2S=3C = long in clubs

1S-2S-3D = long suit trial in diamonds

1S-2S-3H = long suit trial in hearts

 

1S-2S-2NT(relay to 3C), then

• 3D = short suit trial in diamonds
  
• 3H = short suit trial in hearts
  
• 3S = short suit trial in clubs
  

If you don't use 2NT (and the other relay) and choose just short suit (or long suit) trials, you can harnest 2NT as a general game trial. This allows responder to bid the suit where he holds stuff or jump to game with max, or you can use ougust like responses over 2NT. I think it is best to play 2NT here as forcing.

 

Higher level "trial bids" are rarely played, as such new suits are usually reserved for cue-bidding, but trial bids exist after minor suit raise, but there, these are attempts to find out if 3NT is playable more than anything else.

 

Ben

[luke warm]

i don't know the theoretical pluses and minuses, but i've been using the kokish help/short suit tries for awhile now and they haven't hurt me (to my knowledge)... the next cheapest bid asks responder (or opener, either can use it) to bid the *first* suit in which he has help.. kokish defined this as a 4 card suit with a king (or maybe a 3 card suit with 2 or the top 3).. any other bid is a short suit try... for example:

 

1h/2h/2s - 2 spades is a help suit try.. responder bids up the line, with 2nt showing spade help

1h/2h/2nt - short spades, how's it fit?

p/1h/p/2h/p/3c - short suit clubs try

1s/2s/2nt-help suit, responder bids up the line as before

1s/2s/3h - short suit

[Flame]

I played all the trial bids mentioned here.

All of them tries to estimate how good the hands fits, each one doing it in another way. but there are some side factors, like the one mentioned before about the lead, there are two side factors good for natural bidding showing a second suit, first you dont give the opponents an appotunity to double the trial bid, this can mean anything they like to, on short suit triel it doesnt have to have anything to do with the suit, the second factor is when playing natural you sometime can find a better suit, for example after 1M-2M you can find a better 4-4 OM fit.

[bearmum]

Well, your traditional view is for "LONG SUIT Trial bids". There is also the option of playing short suit trial bids, where you want your partner to have stuff somewhere else. Then for the truly adventuresome, you can play boht long suit and short suit trial bids. To do this, you need to impliment a relay over the raise as artificial, and rope 2NT in too. You can bid either long or short suit trials first, and rely wiht the other. For the sake of argument, let's assume you relay for short suit.. then....

 

1H-2H-3C = Long suit trial in clubs

1H-2H-3D = Long suit trial in diamonds

1H-2H-2NT = Long suit trial in spades (2S is relay for short suit trial)

 

1H-2H-2S-2NT(forced), then

• 3C = short in clubs
  
• 3D = short in diamonds
  
• 3H = short in spades
  

Likewise,

1S-2S=3C = long in clubs

1S-2S-3D = long suit trial in diamonds

1S-2S-3H = long suit trial in hearts

 

1S-2S-2NT(relay to 3C), then

• 3D = short suit trial in diamonds
  
• 3H = short suit trial in hearts
  
• 3S = short suit trial in clubs
  

If you don't use 2NT (and the other relay) and choose just short suit (or long suit) trials, you can harnest 2NT as a general game trial. This allows responder to bid the suit where he holds stuff or jump to game with max, or you can use ougust like responses over 2NT. I think it is best to play 2NT here as forcing.

 

Higher level "trial bids" are rarely played, as such new suits are usually reserved for cue-bidding, but trial bids exist after minor suit raise, but there, these are attempts to find out if 3NT is playable more than anything else.

 

Ben

IMHO ------ although this is a REALLY great post it's a little advanced for the BIL string --- (see another post about answering questions in BIL forum)

 

 

 

I believe for BIL folks u need to agree INITALLY on EITHER long OR short suit game tries :blink:

[1eyedjack]

Home-grown method I find works well enough:

 

1S-2S-2N (step 1) = unspecified long suit trial bid.

..............-3C (step 1) = interest, without short suit

....................-3D (step 1) = long suit trial in H (highest side suit) or scattered

..........................-3H = interest opposite long suit trial in H but not scattered

..........................-3S = no interest

....................-3H (step 2) = long suit trial in D (middle side suit)

....................-3S+ (step 3+) = long suit trial in C (lowest side suit)

1S-2S-2N-3D (step 2) = no interest or short C (lowest side suit)

....................-3H = interest opposite short C

..........................-3S = no interest

1S-2S-2N-3D-3S = no interest opposite short C

1S-2S-2N-3H (step 3) = short D (middle side suit)

1S-2S-2N-3S (step 4) = short H (highest side suit)

1S-2S-3C (step 2) = Short C (lowest side suit)

1S-2S-3D (step 3) = Short D (middle side suit)

1S-2S-3H (step 4) = Short H (highest side suit)

1S-2S-3S (step 5) = Preempt (alternative: 2-way, preempt with good trump or game try with poor trump)

 

Game tries after 1H-2H follow the above, preserving relative symmetry.

 

Commentary

========

 

Although there are bound to be exceptions, in the long run the knowledge of the presence and location of a shortage in partner's hand will have a greater impact on your hand re-evaluation than the knowledge of the presence and location of a long suit trial. This is the reason for lumping all of the long suit trials into the first step, in favour of immediate clarification of short suits.

 

For the same reason, if responder has a short suit and opener has indicated a willingness to show a long suit trial bid, then responder shows his shortage in preference to requiring opener to clarify the long suit trial.

 

Sadly, if both responder and opener have shortages then only opener gets to show the shortage.

 

The order in which suits are shown are "reverse numerical", which is to say that shortages are shown up the line, length shown down the line (highest ranking first). This is to preserve bidding space on those hands where there is a prospect of playing in the other major suit than that which has thus far been expressly agreed.

 

The trial bidder may have either a game try or a slam try. If partner shows no interest in game then with a slam try he usually just bids game, but with a huge hand can cue bid. If partner wants to accept the trial bid then he should normally cue bid on the way to game in anticipation of the possibility that trial bidder had a slam try.

 

PS. Just read the preceding post. Apologies to beginners. I think intermediates should be able to grasp this method. And the principles expressed in the commentary have general relevance to all.

[inquiry]

IMHO ------ although this is a REALLY great post it's a little advanced for the BIL string --- (see another post about answering questions in BIL forum)

 

I believe for BIL folks u need to agree INITALLY on EITHER long OR short suit game tries :blink:

Dear Bearmum,

 

This is yet another example if asked by a beginner/intermediate, should it be answered? Whe the dragon asked, he ALREADY KNEW the traditional meaning of trial bids (Traditionally, in the sequence 1S-2S-3C/D/H, the last bid is a Trial Bid suggesting opener has losers in the named suit & asking if responder can help with that suit.")

 

Thus it would hardly been worth reply to repeat what he already stated. Second, he asked specific question on the use of "trial bids". These were:

 

"1) Is there another view?

 

2) What about the sequence 1S-2S-2NT? What should opener have & what are responder's options?

 

Asking what other options exist lead to a natural discussion of short suit trials, and yes, ESPECIALLY because of the comment about 2NT, a discussion of uses of 2NT including using it as part of a two way trial bid.

 

Should a novice or beginner have to bothered with this? Probably not. Should an intermediate? Certainly, if they are interested. Hallway suggested a long time ago that this forum be divided into Novice/Beginner, and then an intermediate or maybe intermediate/advanced forum be created. The purpose was to keep the discussion here limited to what is soley appropriate for beginners (and novices). I supported that view at that time, and will still support that view. But, as I said back then, and will repeat now, as long as this is a forum for beginners and INTERMEDIATES, there will be post on topics that might confuse and confound some beginners. Because if a question is asked, one or more of our many contributors will surely answer.

 

Surely you are not suggesting that novices, beginners and intermediate players not be free to ask whatever question they want?

 

Ben

[luke warm]

i agree wholeheartedly... if someone asks a question i think someone should attempt an answer rather than say "come back when you're closer to advanced"