Very basic but a vexed question

[Wackojack]

Talking yesterday to some friends who play bridge including 2 that take bridge lessons on BBO. I was asked why I insisted that you should respond 1 over 1 with 5 HCP when they had been taught that 6 was needed. This surprised me and so looked at some of the beginners bridge books and the summary of sayc and sure enough they all said 6HCP. It took me to show them BBO Adv where 5HCP was OK. Also at home just looked at a basics class on the EBU (English Bridge Union) magazine where it was mentioned that 6HCP was the min 1 over 1 response. What also caught my eye in this article was about "jumping above the rebid barrier" Seemingly another way of including a reverse or a jump rebid. This said "Do not jump or go above the rebid barrier unless you have a strong hand (16+ points"

 

That seems to encourage a fault that so many beginners have in overbidding as opener and underbidding as responder. Why are beginners taught in this way?

 

Just a small aknowledgement: Many in UK are taught Benji Acol which incudes fairly light opening, and a strong non forcing 2club and game forcing 2 diamonds. And perhaps crucially in old fashoined Benji a 2NT opening bid of 19-20. This perhaps might be a reason for forcing the 1 over 1 response to 6HCP. But why sayc?

[Jlall]

They have to learn some cutoff. 16+ seems like a reasonable one. If they don't reverse with 16, they have to figure out something else to do. This might include bidding a 3 card suit or whatever. 16+ seems reasonable.

 

6 is another abitrary number, but why are you so convinced 5 is better than 6. It might have come from stuff like you can force to game with 19 points when partner responds to your opening bid, and often with 18. You can force to the 3 level with 17 or often 16. Having 6 leads to pretty sensible spots if those are your cutoffs.

 

Basically if you're going to think/teach/talk in terms of point count it will always be really inadequate. That said, they aren't going to know the finer points of bridge immediately. I think these are good basic numbers to start with, then as they learn how to evaluate for points/shape/honor location they can adjust it, then when they learn how to think tactically they might respond with 0 points and a 6 card major white and stuff like that. But they can't just start that way.

 

Also a bit of it is just being outdated. 13 used to be the magic number for opening. Then people realized 12 was better. Maybe 5 is better than 6 and it just has to be updated. Probably it doesn't matter that much.

[helene_t]

Number of issues:

- The 6 point rule may go back to a time when the NT range was 16-18 and opener's rebid of 2NT shows 19. 19+6=25. Also after reversing, opener respects a sing-off with 16-17 and forces to game with 18-19. Or makes a jump shift with (18)19. Before you learn Woolf you can't sign of after a 2NT rebid. Basically when you respond you say you are happy to be in game opposite a misfitting (18)19 points.

 

- It may also go back to a time with strong twos so opener is less likely to have more than 19 points or a very good two-suiter. (At least as strong twos are taught in the Netherlands, they include two-suited hands. I have the impression that this is not the case in England where most say "8 playing tricks" which you don't have with say AKQxx-AKQxx-Kx-x)

 

- A reverse with a modest 16 count may be an overbid but for strong-notrumpers who haven't been taught to open 1NT with semibalanced hands there is no alternative.

 

- I believe it's good practice to pass with non-exiting 5-counts, like you don't open with a non-exiting 11-count. Then later you learn to upgrade.

 

- The reason for responding light is partly tactical, something which is not emphasized in beginner's textbooks.

 

FWIW I like sound responses as I like the 2NT rebid to be forcing.

[Stephen Tu]

Instead of teaching beginners that some number n is the minimum to respond, I would instead tell them that:

 

with 6 pts, it's mandatory to respond,

while with 4-5 it's optional, and give them the various plus/minus factors.

[eyhung]

Instead of teaching beginners that some number n is the minimum to respond, I would instead tell them that:

 

with 6 pts, it's mandatory to respond,

while with 4-5 it's optional, and give them the various plus/minus factors.

While I think such an approach is good for advancing players, for beginners, it's really too much for them to absorb. They're busy trying to remember how to count points and which cards are high, let alone plus/minus factors. Saying 13 to open, 6 to respond is mandatory, and once you get good you need fewer, works better in my experience. And yes, I do teach beginners to pass 12-counts because their cardplay simply isn't up to snuff -- they really need 26 points to make game.

 

This is related to one of the issues I have with BBO's Learn to Play Bridge software. The software is incredible for an intermediate who is willing to review the fundamentals -- Fred does a great job explaining judgement and even I learned something after having played the game for many years. But having attempted to use the software as a teaching supplement, I have yet to see a single true beginner love the software -- if anything the software is a turnoff because there's just Too Much Information.

[Tola18]

One reason for the lower limit in Sayc may be, there you can open on 3 cards. In the popular 5542 variation - even on 2 if clubs. You dont want to let down partner playing on a short suit, when you perhaps even do have a 44 or 53 in a major.

 

Thus, sayc players tend to bid on with 5 or even 4 good points.

 

While four-cards openers, like Acolites, happily passes knowing the contract of 1m is probably perfectly playable although perhaps not necessary optimal.

[mikeh]

One of my business partners, who is 60, has been taking lessons, based on the Audrey Grant approach. He comes to me seeking explanations of things that he is learning. I quickly realized that there was no way that I could explain points to him in any way familar to me. Thus, he asked me to clarify 'cuebids'. Take a moment and think about the way that you use cuebids...the many, many ways they can be used. Even in uncontested auctions, when do you cuebid shortness? Do you cuebid Aces before Kings? What does it mean to bypass a suit, while cue-bidding?

 

The reality is that the true beginner is overwhelmed if given even the amount of knowledge we expect of an intermediate, so it is essential to develop simple, clearly understood rules. When I answer questions from a beginner, I try to do that, while telling him that as he learns more, his horizons will expand, and he will learn nuances. I want him to understand that he is learning a basic approach that, if he sticks with the game, will eventually prove inadequate... but that what he is learning will be the foundation on which he can build.

 

So: 6 points to respond is fine with me.

[jikl]

I think it is simpler than that and goes to the 1NT response to 1x, it is 6-9, therefore make it 6 for all bids so there is less to remember.

 

Sean

[sharon j]

Instead of teaching beginners that some number n is the minimum to respond, I would instead tell them that:

 

with 6 pts, it's mandatory to respond,

while with 4-5 it's optional, and give them the various plus/minus factors.

While I think such an approach is good for advancing players, for beginners, it's really too much for them to absorb. They're busy trying to remember how to count points and which cards are high, let alone plus/minus factors. Saying 13 to open, 6 to respond is mandatory, and once you get good you need fewer, works better in my experience. And yes, I do teach beginners to pass 12-counts because their cardplay simply isn't up to snuff -- they really need 26 points to make game.

 

This is related to one of the issues I have with BBO's Learn to Play Bridge software. The software is incredible for an intermediate who is willing to review the fundamentals -- Fred does a great job explaining judgement and even I learned something after having played the game for many years. But having attempted to use the software as a teaching supplement, I have yet to see a single true beginner love the software -- if anything the software is a turnoff because there's just Too Much Information.

 

I knew absolutely nothing about bridge other than it was a card game, so I was a "true beginner". I loved Fred's program and I believe many more experienced bridge players could learn something from it. I still use it to review when things gets cloudy.

[eyhung]

Then I stand corrected. Glad to hear your experience was different from the other beginners I've taught.